Atlantics in the Chehalis?

Was fishing up in the Canyon on Saturday for steels and Hit two big Atlantics. Thats right ATLANTICS. I saw three others up there. They were big and they tasted great. They bite like crazy on BC goo bobs.
They were 9-10lbs ,orangy spots. short jaw length , buggy eyes and silvery grey right...

they were dollies very similar looking trust me

"they were dollies very similar looking trust me"
Just what does this mean?
Were they or weren't they Dolly Vardens?
How do you know?
Did you see them, were you fishing with the guy?
Atlantic Salmon all have Black Spots on their cheeks, no not those, right on the Gill Plate.
They have no spots on the body, unlike Charr which all do.
"News like that could be bad news for all of us."
Hello!
It ain't news, hasn't been for 10+ years now, they 're here and they ain't leavin'!
See the link http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/06/07/atlantic.salmon.enn/
taken from this board.

Were these salmon male or female and ready to spawn? If they are that far into the fresh water system they must be preparing to do so. I am curious as to whether the hatchery on the Chehalis has encountered any such findings yet.

Carl, you should be able to understand just exactly what Ryan is getting at. There is a fair number of Dollies in the Chehalis...and a lot of people fish our local rivers for years without seeing or catching them. It is VERY POSSIBLE that Gary just has mistaken Dollies for Atlantics. Much more likely than actually seeing at least 5 adult Atlantics in one hole! With the amount of fishing pressure on the Chehalis, there would be other reports! It is possible, but very unlikely.

http://www.lakemarie.com/Grayling%2C%20dollies%2C%20and%20Pike/Dolly%20Varden%2C%20Arctic%20Char%20in%20water.jpg
So now we are comparing members of the Char and Salmon families. The comparison is insulting, especially since its blatantly obvious to see the difference between pink spots which the Char family generally has (or lighter spots and darker backgrounds) as opposed to the black spots (especially on the Gill plate which the Char family does NOT have generally) which the Atlantic Salmon have (and brown trout as well).

If you were to wear Pink to a bar instead of Black, who do you think you would be picking up? I don't think it would be chicks. Big difference.
You also didn't even give our friend Gary to explain himself. Something that is common in fishing are things that happen out of the ordinary. Whether or not we have the balls to come on here and humiliate ourselves by trying to tell a "story" is up to us. Let the guy at least explain himself first. I've caught plenty of dollies and I think I would have to know for sure before I come onto a fishing board saying I caught atlantics. I'd probably bonk it and take some pics first. Lets let our friend Gary explain himself a little more.

I am gong to have to agree with what Ryan said. There are some huge dollies and right now they will grab anything that you throw at them right now up there. Gary did you take any pictures? I am sure you bonked both of them right? Did you already eat both of them? If not take a pic of them if you haven't.It is weird as Mike said that know one else has gotten into any as they have to pass through the guantlet of anglers at the Hatchery hole and up to easter seal.

Oh ya does anybody have any pics of a seas run dolly. I bet they look like what Gary is talking about.

Ian

Sorry about the wait, had some trouble getting an account sent up. I am not great at computers. YES THE FISH I CAUGHT WERE ATLANTICS. I Know what Atlantics are and what they look like I was born in Gaspe. These fish where mature and I caught two of them, and saw what could have been three more of them. I phoned the the Atlantic Salmon Watch and they asked me plenty of details about size and location. It was suggested that these fish fit a description of a pile of fish that escaped from a Puget Sound fish farm. I am taking the frozen head of one of them to the fellow I talked to on the phone.

Gary there are regs. Telling you what to do when you think you caught an atlantic salmon. The whole fish including entrails should have been saved!Lets hope there not spawners!

Well at least he killed them, and didn't release them. (If they were indeed Atlantics)

Born in Gaspe-he knows what he say!
I agree with Mike , Gary did right killin' em.
As to Laurie's comment "Lets hope there not spawners!"(sic) they're all spawners, that's what they do even after 40 generations in cages.
Of course scientists told us differently, they knew better(!)
Recreational capture of Atlantic Salmon goes back at least ten years as I mentioned earlier, hot spots include the Keogh, the Salmon and the Zeballos on VI, coincidentally rivers close to a large number of Salmon farms.

OK all you fish biologists let's see if anyone can answer this one.
Back in the 80's in Britain I recall enormous competition between trout lake owners to stock the largest rainbows they could to attract paying customers.Eventually sizes got ridiculous - 30+ pounders. All of these fish were triploid fish ie with an extra set of chromosomes and hence sterile. There were also experimental landlocked Atlantic salmon stockings going on also with triploid fish. As I understood it at the time besides making the fish sterile, being triploid helped them pack on the pounds quickly sort of like being a eunuch I suppose. If this is indeed the case then why can't The Atlantics farmed here in BC be triploid?

yes but science told us that salmon would only spawn in there place of birth!But i read an article in outdoors magazine that said there was a river on vancouver island that they found them starting to spawn.I tend to believe that after 40 years in cages that they would need mans assistance with it !And yes killing them was right but not to follow regs. is still wrong!

I'm not sure the restaurant industry is ready just yet for genetically altered hybridized salmon but I suspect were not too far off from that. In the meantime I have not ever heard of the west coast fish farms using these freaks. Polyploidism has been used for centuries in the horticultural industry to create unique specimens which in turn can only be propogated through non sexual reproduction.

atlantic salmon have been raised in farms here in B.C for sometime !

The river in which i was referring to was the tsitika river ,which on the tip of vancouver island.there they found juvenile atlantic salmon. these fished fish were thaught to have escaped from a B.c hatchery which is located several miles away.

Gary,

How far up the canyon were you fishing? I'd like to go up there and try and catch the other three that you saw.

From what I have picked up over the years Atlantic Salmon, at least in the UK, Leave the river of birth after about 2 years as parr and leave for the open sea as smolts in the early spring. It is known that large numbers feed in the area around Greenland. This is well documented as they are (Were) caught by drift netters in that area. They are assumed to be one winter fish, weighing from 4 -10 Lbs, known as grilse over here. These are the fish that tend to return in the summer months. Larger fish (Springers) usually 2-3 winter fish weighing upwards of 10 Lbs.are thought to have ventured further afield Atomic Subs have reported them under the Arctic Ice Cap, there is also a theory that they have been in a circular current in the N. atlantic and hence the longer time at sea. It is said that these currents are essential to the salmons survival as they aid the return to their native rivers.
The Brits have always been fond of their fishing and the Colonialists tended to stock rivers wherever they went, with Salmon and Trout. With our native Brown Trout they were usually sucessfull in establishing a self sustaining stock. With salmon, intoduced into New Zealand, Australia, S. Africa, and South America, fish never returned to spawn. The theory put forward was that they were programned to drift the N Atlantic currents and hence would not survive anywhere else.
You in BC, in a completly different Ocean seem to dispel this theory.

Ah don't forget, we did try to plant Atlantics here at one time. It didn't work. It's funny how that didn't work and yet John Volpe discovers parr in the Tsitika. Nature takes over where man cannot go. It is obvious that some are getting up the falls and spawning. He also ventures that because atlantics can get many places that steelhead can and not usually pacifics, that the underutilized habitat created by declining steelhead stocks will only benefit the introduction of a viable atlantic population.

And as far as triploidy goes, I remember watching a program in the eighties about it and how it was inevitable that fish farms begin using the techniques. It was hailed as a breakthrough, a way of ensuring these fish not spawn. I also remember some aquaculture programs practicing the technique.

And the irony to all of this: In Ontario, attempts to re-introduce the Atlantic Salmon a number of years ago, into their historical range in Eastern lake Ontario, was considered a failure because of the stocked Pacific Salmon...

http://www.chehalis-hatchery.shawbiz.ca/

from the Chahalis hatchery website


"PS. This is to deny any say about Atlantic Salmon being caught in the Chehalis. No such report has been presented or confirmed by the DFO. Atlantic salmon spawn in the Spring so any sight of them now, they would look like the bright immature female shown below. Not in Spawning colors."

Frank,
re the comment from the DFO, Atlantic Salmon in the UK spawn in Nov / Dec.
After the close season fishing recomences as early as mid January on the river Tay in Scotland, and many others by Feb 1st.

Mike ,

You may be right, this is a local report done on the issue. Good article by Barry Thornton echos your view that Atlantics spawn fall early winter. I met Robert (Steelhead Bob) from the Chehalis hatchery yesterday on the Harrison, but forgot to ask him about the Atlantics, only noticed their posting on the website after I got back.

This is off topic but I would just like to wish you all a Safe, Happy and Healthy New Year!
Cheers
Daisymae

Frank ,

An interesting article at www.outdoors, I think the introduction of foreign species is a world wide problem. We have Feral Mink on most of our English rivers now, which has almost eliminated our native Water voles (Of Ratty fame, in The Wind In The Willows)We also have lost many of our small native Cray fish due to escaped American Signal Cray fish. We now have idiots talking about introducing Wolf and Beaver because they were once native here.
The disease of Salmon mentioned, has now hit Rainbow Trout being grown on for stocking at one of our major reserviors.

Years ago on the Cowichan river on Van Is. they did try to introduce Atlantics. Fortunately they did not take. I think the difference now is the fish that are escaping are fully mature adults, they don't need to migrate to the ocean because they are already mature, they just need to find a spot or river to their liking. The idea of triploids has been around for quite some time, but do they check to make sure that every single fish is triploid and unable to spawn (I don't think so)so even if the stock was assumed sterile it may not be the case for every fish.
Here's a thought at least the fish that are escaping in BC are unable to breed with our native stocks. Just imagine how bad the gene bank of our wild populations could be screwed up if it were pacific salmon that have been genetically altered for fast growth and feed conversion that are escaping and breeding with our wild stocks. at least it's just compition for food and habitat and not genetic makeup too.

Leaving aside for the moment the debate about whether Atlantics are desirable in environmental terms it'll be interesting to see how quickly the attitude that they are 'vermin' changes if/when they become established here.
As Thornton's article says they are highly prized elsewhere, even more so these days for their rarity.
Just for the record I'm in the 'vermin' camp myself.

I just think that if our native stocks were in better shape we wouldn't even have to really worry. Several fish would not likely overcome several thousand but when numbers are so seriously depressed several fish can take hold were there is no competition. No(or reduced) steelhead means no direct competion for atlantics

I sent an email to the Chehalis Hatchery, this is the response:

"There has been no confirmed reports of Atlantic salmon being caught in the Chehalis or in the vicinity of. All fisherman should be aware of what the regulations state about Atlantics. If someone were to catch one, and supposedly know what they look like because of their expertise, then they should be smart enough to know what regulations state instead of eating the "evidence". Atlantic from BC's west coast spawn , like sthd, between Oct-Mar.

If a true Atlantic were to be caught and identified by the Pacific Biological Station then a warning would go out to notify an open fishery or an action plan for that area.

How come no body else has claimed this story before? There have been a couple of attempts and similarities turned in but have been mistaken for Dolly's or Coho.
I am awaiting some more information from a friend in the Atlantic industry on the west coast when I some new information I will pass it forward.

I saw an e-mail from the Chehalis hatchery this AM.
What a garbled lot of BS it was.
First the guy, whoever he is, claimed that Atlantics 'from Europe' spawn in spring in North America (his source was someone from a Salmon Farm-a Salmon Farm!!!), well at least he's changed his tune about that.
I pointed out to him that Atlantics in Atlantic Canada spawn at the same time as those 'across the pond' and told him he might be thinking about Chilean Atlantics.
He also told me that they might be Coho/Chinook crosses-a biological impossibility, or Char which have different coloured spots as mentioned earlier in this thread.
The guys at the Chehalis Hatchery might be doing a great job but like all of us all they know is all they know-Exotics ain't their thing-not at all.
About "If a true Atlantic were to be caught and identified by the Pacific Biological Station then a warning would go out to notify an open fishery or an action plan for that area."
There is an 'Action Plan'-it's called Atlantic Watch-
1-800-811-6010 and believe me that's all the $$$ the Federal Government will ever spend toward what they see as 'tempest in a teapot' which is what we should all hope it is.
As to the requirement about turning in dead Atlantics the way I read the regs it's a suggestion not a law.

Well ... aside from the chippiness of the response, it sounds like Swamp Gas Syndrome to me.

As in: "Thank you for your interest Layman, but since we Experts have not observed this phenomenon before, it could not possibly have occurred. Had it occurred, we would have undoubtedly observed it, and we didn't, so it didn't."

I don't know who's bluffing here but we all know. I too saw that e-mail from Chehalis hatchery and boy talk about elaborating a story. It specifically discussed that BC West Coast Atl. spawn in spring (or Oct-Mar to be correct). Not a mention of european Atl.?~~~~gas~~~ And no I don't recall a Atlantic salmon bioligist knowing (factually) about when european Atl spawn in comparison to West Coast Salmon. The so called "action plan for that area" was implied specificaly for the Chehalis River only..Atlantic watch is for all of the Fraser basin. I worked with the Chinook tagging crew on the Harrison river this Fall and found 2 Chinook/Chum Crosses. Also if you speak with Vic Ewert from Weaver Creek Spawning channel he has had Sockeye/Chum fry emerge from his channel. I don't know what occupation half of these people on here have, but I tell ya I could make up the best web page stating whatever facts I want and people like you will believe whatever is displayed on a web page. I don't believe any of you guys. I know what I know from experience and education out of UBC and working in the Fraser Basin. Some of you are right and others are high on gas. If I were to catch an Atl. on the Chehalis believe me pictures would be seen on this sight and at local buisnesses believe me I would make sure I have proof rather than gas coming out of my mouth.

I am not saying that this idea of Atl. in the Chehalis isn't possible, I'm sure pictures tell the truth. Anyone can say it is or isn't an Atl. everyone has ther own opinion, but without pictures, what you got is a big controversal discussion board. A Atlantic was turned in dead from the Harrison about 7-8 years ago, so I was told.

by the way the head is limited for research. Otoliths can be taken for extensive research and the OPERCULUM can be observed for spots but If they have the whole fish scale samples are taken anal fin rays are counted properly, stomach contents are examined, signs of body marking to display possible residency or escapement marks. So go ahead and catch 5 "Atl. salmon" but submit a whole one to figure if there is a problem and how they survive(st.contents),size in such a sm.and shallow stream, etc etc

I've heard of unconfirmed reports of Atlantics turning up in other north Fraser streams as well. What I wonder is where are the nearest farms to the Fraser?

The closest farms?
Campbell River I suppose I don't know about the ones in WA state aren't some just off Bainbridge Island?
Port Hardy has a lot as well and all through Broughton Archipelago I guess that closer than the ones on the 'outside' at least 'as the Salmon Swims'.
As to "how they survive(st.contents),size in such a sm.and shallow stream, etc etc" well the Tsitika ain't the Fraser for sure, they've spawned in there 2 different times that's now a proven fact.
Funny how people don't want to know what they don't know, an unpalatable side of human nature that's well documented.
I'm reminded of the Fisheries scientist, or was he a bureaucrat? who first accused the guy who found the smolts of 'planting them'.
Haven't heard much from the old boy since.

There is a fresh water farm in Agassiz but it is confined and is run on well water and has no contact with existing waterways or else he would have not got the permit to farm. I believe they only farm fry and smolts and then transport (sell) them to saltwater farms on the VI coast. There are certain laws he would have to farm by in order to be allowed to.

Nearest fish farms to the Fraser with Atlantics are on the Sunshine Coast.

Escaped Atlantics from BC farms have been found as far south as California and as far north as Alaska.

As for regs regarding Atlantics, as far as I know you can keep them and there is no limit. However, DFO wants to know of all interceptions. The Chehalis hatchery has a poster posted asking all fishers to report any incidences of sightings or catches.

BTW, there is a biologist named John Volpe who has documented Atlantics spawning in BC Rivers.

As to whether these fish are dollies or Atlantics, the only way to get a sure idea is to catch one and bring it in to the hatchery. Shouldn't be hard to do if there were a bunch of them and the seemed to be aggressive biters.

Carl I know of a river/stream on vancouver island (i forget the name) but I know that there is a predominent abundance of Atlantic Salmon spawning and returning year after year. There is a open fishery on it for Atl.Salmon. There wasn't much as for salmon species in the stream to start off with (ex no Coho, Sthd) and Atl. salmon took over and reside there. Its not the Tsitika,or Zebellos. And it was "how they survive(st.contents),size in such a sm.and shallow stream" specific to the Chehalis not in general. I will have to ask my father on the island about that stream/river's name.

Jes:

You are probably talking about the Salmon and White Rivers, north of Campbell River. Anglers there have been hooking up to a dozen of these critters yearly for the past few years.

Juvenile Atlantics (from previous years spawn) have been documented in the Tsitika River and Amour de Cosmos Creek (both north of Campbell River).

Most of the rivers on northern Vancouver Island have Atlantics in them as literally thousands of these fish escape from farms up and down the coast. However, the number of farms in the Broughton Archipelago (islands east of Campbell River and to the north) far outnumber any others in any one geographical location on this coast so the number of escapees is higher there.

Almost 10,000 escaped Atlantics were caught in the chuck in the Johnstone Strait area in this summer's pink fishery opening. One fish farm lost almost 40,000 fish and failed to report it (all escapes have to be reported).

Tyler:

Re your comment about the attempted plant of Atlantics on this coast that didn't take, that was a one time thing. It does not surprise me that it was unsuccessful. However, with the boom in fish farming, more Atlantics have escaped (probably in excess of 1 million fish) over the past decade than were brought in during the early stocking attempt (a few thousand) and they have had a longer time to adapt. They are entering more rivers, each with their own specific environment (pH, temp, nutirents, etc..). Also, with all the fooling around with inbreeding and cross-breeding the fish in these pens are nothing like the wild fish that were introduced long ago.

They said it wouldn't happen here. I believe it is happening. I also believe that the recent mass die offs of sockeye in the Fraser and Adams river may be related to returning fish swimming past farms with diseased fish and picking up viruses and parasites that run rampant when the fish become stressed as they move up river. The parasite the DFO identified in dead Fraser River salmon (Parvicapsula) was first seen and identified in a fish farm in Puget Sound over a decade ago. Since then it has spread up and down the coast and is cited in the BC Salmon Aquaculture Review the government did a few years ago as a significant factor in mortality of farmed fish.

I hope I am wrong, but in Norway they are now poisoning all of their major rivers to kill strains of parasites, bacteria and viruses that were never there before fish farms came. Almost all of their wild fish stocks in rivers near fish farms are collapsing and it isn't from over-fishing. It's disease that's killing them. New, more virulent and anti-biotic resistant strains of disease.

John,

The attempted planting of Atlantics occured over a few decades (from about 1904 to 1932 if memory serves) into a number of rivers. A pretty serious attempt that likely failed because habitat was fully utilized at that time. (It might be possible to research this for more accurate figures through Fish Wizard or whatever the province calls it.)

I've mentioned this before but two summers ago a suspected Atlantic was passed through the Bonaparte fishway--a tributary of the Thompson. Nothing surprises me anymore.

TA

IIRC the die off of sockeye in both the harrison River and Cultus lake were both attributed to naturally occuring parasites not to anything that recently arrived with farm fish. Dead sockeye on the Harrison in particular is nothing new it's just that few sport fishermen noticed before the sockeye fishery opened on that river.

Jes - I'd like to know how that chinook/chum hybrid on the Harrison was identified.

I'm always very leary of FACTS. I live in the Campbell River area and have for a long time, I'm also heavily involved with the sportsfishing industry, and should also mention that almost everyone that lives here, has some connection to the fishing farming industry. So here goes, with what I DO KNOW. Yes, there have been documented adult atlantics caught in a few of our northern island rivers. The only person who has documented atlantic fry, in the Tsitika, John Volpe, is also the only person to have seen them. He is considered suspect around here due to his close connection to environmental groups and the fact that he had recieved atlantic fry the day before his great find, from a local fish farm. He requested them, so as to ensure accurate identification. Not sure I believe his claim, but am open for real proof, meaning I want someone else, totally independant from any fishing industry, to confirm the findings. One mans word is not good enough. Anything is possible, but as stated before BC has seen attempts to plant atlantics here, with no success. Bet you didn't know that they also tried to transplant moose to the island in the 50's. That obviously didn't work either.

As a fishing guide, I see some pretty strange looking fish in our waters. With 50 guides working out of one place and all the fish caught coming in to the same dock, we pull in some strange ones that we send away for DNA testing to see what the actually are.
We have not had any cross breeds identified, but we have had lots of fish that looked like perfect crosses between various salmon species. We have even had some that looked like one species and turned out to be another. Very strange things come from the sea sometimes.
You would think from the amount of time we all put in over the summer ( we put in anywhere from 800 to 1200 hrs per summer ), especially fishing exclusively in the inside passage where 95% of all the fish farms are, that we would catch lots of them. We don't! We have had exactly 1 atlantic on our dock in 2 years. Considering the numbers that escape, the number of interceptions should be way higher that that.
I'm not a fish farm advocate, but from what I've seen, as my father would say, is "piss and vinegar". Meaning a lot of doom and gloom has been talked about for years, but from living in the area and seeing with my own eyes, I have yet to see their doomsday scenarios come to any sort of fruition. Disease is often mentioned, but to date it has been the farmed fish that have been destroyed because of disease. They catch viruses and other illnesses from migrating fish, not the other way around.
Probably the biggest problem with the farms is the fact that they are stationary. All the fallout from each pen falls to the seafloor and stays there like a carpet, covering everything. No one knows yet if this will kill the entire surroudings, or if something has or will move into this food niche.
As to Norway poisoning all of their rivers, man I wish people would stop spreading this garbage. They kill off one river to wipe out a recurring disease and the word gets out that they've had to do it to every one. WRONG! Have friends who live there and we talk all the time. They just verbally shake their heads when I tell them this stuff, mind you they get some pretty weird stuff about us too.

I thought that the fry found in the Tsitka were tested somehow to determine whether they had been hatched in the wild or in a hatchery/farm setting? Regardless, I agree with you Alexis that it seems like a doomsday scenario when predictions of the Pacific salmon disappearing due to the Atlantics are made. Survival rates being what they are, the 6 fry volpe found (or however many it was) likely wouldn't have made the round trip. I'd hazard a guess and say that the commercial boys that net off the Seymour Narrows impact the salmon more than the fry in the Tsitka.

Regarding the Atlantic Salmon Parr or fry in the Tsitika - yes it's a long way to go from a small number of fish hatching to establishing a self sustaining population that pushes out native stocks. These Atlantics are after all domestic stocks dependent on man for survival - there are few instances in nature where such critters established self sustaining populations when faced with disease, predators and natural hazards reducing their numbers to the same extent as native wild fish who over hundreds of generations have genetically adapted to coping with such pressures.

Yes it could happen but I bet it's an extremely long shot.

Ralph,
I tend to agree with you re Atlantics becoming a threat in BC. See my post on the subject on Dec 28th.
From the many comments on this board, there can be no doubt that mature fish escape in considerable numbers, and no doubt have the instinct to return to fresh water. But! what fresh water, they have no knowledge of a nursery stream so will just take pot luck. Also remember it takes Two to Tango which reduces the chances of of spawning since any returning fish may be the only one in any given stream.
If successful spawning does take place, then what? previous attempts at introduction have been with ova or fry, and have always failed, probably due to their life at sea, and the consequent disorientation. Remember Atlantic Salmon in their native habitat, have had countless generations to establish the homing instinct to their birthplace.It is also known that their life at sea covers vast distances to arctic regions when I believe your Pacific Salmon only venture around the local coast, although I stand to be corrected on this

I'm surprised no one responded to Alexis' post, which I thought provided a refreshingly candid point of view based on real life experience, rather than the filtered hearsay information we are dealing with from "authorities". What is the real truth here?
We can all agree fish escape, after that it seems to be all speculation and various interest groups putting their own spin on it.
Except for Mr. Volpe's find, what other hard evidence is there that these escapees are spawning?

Is this a case where we have already decided, perception is reality?

I'm not arguing one way or the other, it just seems this thread has taken on a "Salem Witch Hunt" kinda feeling.

Basically I find Alexis's observations illuminating and support what I suspect that the fears many people have about Atlantics establishing sustaining populations and pushing out natives fish are somewhat groundless. Some of this is media distortion - the media tends to cite specific examples where such things happens (ie rabbits in Australia) but leave out the factors that lead to the success of the exotics (no competition and no natiral predators usually combined with high fecundity - ie rabbits) and never cite what I bet is the longer list of failed exotic introductions - even after concerted attempts by people to make the introduction successful

With all due respect to the parties, "real life experience" is just another way of saying "anecdotal evidence", which is just another way of saying "filtered hearsay".

Fact is, no one knows what the impacts will be - if any. When we're dealing with a situation which cannot be reversed, it might be wise to fear the unknown ... err on the side of caution, perhaps.

Those who believe otherwise are heretics, and will burn in eternal hellfire.

Eternal hellfire- I hope not. I do agree. The best remedy for a problem. Not to start the problem. Not a big fan of having farmed fish in saltwater. Especially non-native species. Too many what if's. Good points stated by both sides, but better to be skeptical than sorry. I'm talking about the what if issue, of course-not someone's credibility

As to Alexis' post "almost everyone that lives here, has some connection to the fishing farming industry"
To me what this means is that CR is the LAST place anyone should go for info that's neutral and factual, to mant b***s in the vise if Salmon Farming goes downhill.
"He is considered suspect around here due to his close connection to environmental groups and the fact that he had recieved atlantic fry the day before his great find, from a local fish farm"
Exactly the kind of small-town BS I'd expect to hear in a rumour mill like CR-I grew up in a small town myself..
In fact he found Smolts twice-both from different year-classes,not just In the Tsitika but in Amor de Cosmos-again 2 year classes and the Adam River as well over a number of months.
Did he 'borrow' Smolts from a a farm every time he & the graduate students he had working for him swam those rivers?
As to very few being caught in any Sport Fishery that's good news, leaving aside the fact that 1,000's & 1,000's of Salmon Farm carcasses are littering the bottom somewhere.
It's good news that few relatively few have been found in rivers, the few that have been found must be the hardiest, toughest out of the many ecapees.
Of course that's also the bad news.

I forgot to give credit to Alexis for mentioning the destruction of the Benthic Environment, that is to say the life on the bottom.
Aquaculture has gotten a free ride for a long time, since it's inception, dumping Tonnes and Tonnes of waste into the waters of BC with no controls whatsoever.
What other industry would be allowed to pollute on such a massive scale?
Perhaps the Accountant on the board-we all know who he is-would care to comment on 'The True Cost Of Accounting' in this case.

Many times I have seen arguments on this board as to whether or not a hatchery raised steelhead is in some way inferior to it's absoulutly wild brethern. Arguments have been made about hatchery fish being a poorer fight, because they're fed pellets for the first year of their existence, and consequently have a poorer ability to find natural food then wild stock. For an Atlantic to survive after having escaped from a pen where it has been all it's life, fed nothing but pellets and has no muscle structure from swimming in a pen less than 100 ft round, sounds almost miraculous. The few that are caught by sports anglers are a pretty sad representation of a fish. Their fins are all torn and ratty, the nose is scarred from running into the net of the pen, and they are usually very thin, with nothing in their stomachs. What makes anyone think these fish, in the shape they are in, and in absolutly strange surroundings, could some how muster the strength to not only find a river, move up it against current, to the perfect spot necessary for it's roe to develop, and on top of that find a suitable female waiting for him that has also survived against all odds. Chances are that the smolts found were escapees themselves. We've had transports turn over on the highway near watercourses just about every year for at least the last 5, including Amour De Cosmos Creek.

As to association with fish farms, in a town this small, there is no way around it. Mine for example is my daughters boyfriend. He works at one near Pt Hardy. Everbody here knows of someone, or is connected with someone involved with the fish farming industry. That doesn't mean I support it, it just means it's a fact of life. If you say that it's bad for everything than for pete's sake support your arguments with indisputable facts. Right at the moment all we have is histronics, with every different interest group peddling their ideas and concerns, and discounting everyone elses.
As someone mentioned, we would have been much better off if we had not introduced alien species into our waters, this is true, however, as I am fond of telling people, humans do not have a reverse speed. We cannot put the genie back into the bottle and once Pandoras box was opened, there was no way to close it again.

True enough, but one can take actions to prevent further damage. And this is damage that we don't even know about. There are many questions that should have been asked prior to starting fish farming. There should have also been studies first, determining what the effects of the questions could have been. There are so many examples of biologists, dfo, government etc., that have just up and tried something or let something happen and it's blown up in their face. (No I'm not pointing fingers at biologists in perticular just stating a point, and I don't feel like going into detail because this would end up being 10 pages long.) What I'm suggesting (I know this will never happen) is that we could bring groups in to do studies on the effects of fish farming atlantics in the ocean. In the meantime stop fish farming. (I definitely know this will never ever, ever happen) Things such as different species should be examined more thoroughly. I really like the idea of the triploid, and am definitely not big on a non-native. I realize that they figure it's the best species right now, but if we had sterile fish, this wouldn't even be a discussion. Many of the lakes that are now stocked with rainbows contain triploids. No way to spawn=females that grow extremely quickly, also because they mature later than males. Also, which species are prone to disease? Really, what is the effect of the "Benthic Environment?" (This could be a disaster. Look what milfoil's done to so many waters.) What are the benefits of using the ocean? What would be the advantages/disadvantages of having fish farms in closed water systems? My point is, we are starting to figure out that this is an adventure gone wrong. Why not pull the plug. All we are doing is encouraging it at this point. As stated above, what are the odds. Well they are very low obviously, but with each spill, each time fish escape they increase.

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