Spring Chinooks
I was watching the news the other day and they were just hammering the chinooks in the Columbia River. That evening I was at the New Westminster key and there are seals everywhere. I counted about 14 just in my view. Are there springs in there now or when do they arrive approx.? Thanks in advance.

Glen, the Fraser river has adult chinooks in it from February to December believe it or not, or as some will claim year round, with the peak of fish in the fraser being June. How good the fishing is depeends on how high the water is. The columbia tradionally before they dammed it had some of THE BEST run of Spring and Summer chinook salmon in the world. Where The Columbia is known for chinook, the Fraser is known for its Sockeye. Unfortunately, the Columbia ins't what it used to be with Dams and what not. The Fraser, also used to have a great traditional spring and summer run chinook, but obviously the runs have declined.I can say that the one thing about the Fraser thats great is that it is for the most part undammed (the mainstem along with most tributaries) and it still retains its original wild runs of chinook salmon that run all the way up the the head waters and rivers such as the Nechako, and Bowron Lakes along with several tribs on the way. If you want to know, there are a variety of ways to angle for these fish, but keep in mind, these Early chinook are STRONG fish. Incredibly strong. They will fight you to the last breath and I can assure you that all of the fish entering the river from now until about the end of June are going to be chrome fresh and hard. They're not usually noted for being large fish, but they are noted for having good fighting abilities and a lot of staimina. Why do you think they would have this? Well if you look at the waters they have to face and how far they have to travel, its pretty obvious. There are a variety of ways to cath these chinook, the best way picking a good clean creek or river mouth (that feeds into the Fraser river) to sit at with a bar rod, or even trolling/casting spooons and large spinners. Roe is also an alternative under a float if the waters deem that possible. I'm sure someone with a bit more info can help you, but I hope this helps. Scott

Where have I erred in my post about the Fraser Chinook. Barry, The use of bait causes the likelihood that you will probably hook more fish. The more fish you hook, the more mortality rates go up. What part of this don't you understand? The Fraser is a dirty water stream, or often times silty. When the main run of chinook hits, finding them with wool or another means is often challenging because water levels go up and the fraser are mercy. These early red springs are purley table fare. If I hook and land one, I will kill it. How about you? I never said that bait should be banned accross the province, I just think Bait should be suited best with guts for guts. When fishing for coho early morning, I will often times use bait if I have the oppurutunity to for the first section of it. I just think on the likes of wild steelhead rivers where you can't keep fish, and the pressure is on, they should be protected. There are some applications though, where the use of bait is almost mandatory to catch fish, such as the one I have just mentioned involving the Fraser Chinooks. There are other ways as well such as with spoons/big spinners. Is there anything that you have a problem with? Rod, NOt once, Not even twice, Not even three times, or Not even at all, did I ever claim to be the authority on Fraser Spring Salmon. I did add something at the end of my post that said something to the effect of "someone with more info out there can surely help you." Was I wrong in stating these chinook are incredibly hard fighters? Was my reasoning wrong? What did I say that you did not agree with? Fishcarver the Fraser does have a way of counting fish, the Albion test fishery. I have been keeping close tabs on it just for my own pure curiousity, and it appears the run is below average, but, thats compared to the last 20 years, which says a lot, when runs were much higher and we had higher averages in runs. Salmon and Steelhead are a completley different ball game. They can often times be taken on the same gear in medium sized rivers, but these chinook on the mainstem of the fraser before entering their native streams are a seperate issue to the Wild Steelhead systems of Vancouver Island. So how does you bringing up a past argument have anythign to do with what is at hand? Sometimes I think you guys are little babies, or just a sideshow peanut gallery who sit back on the prowl. I have personally tried to stay away from posting from this board, because I know you guys are on the prowl with nothing better to do with your time. If thats what you fellas are on this angling board for, thats fine by me, I think I'll just leave the expertise about posting to you guys. I just have a simple question for you, have I erred in my post? Was I giving bogus information to our new friend Glen here? If I've Erred, I'd like to know. Scott

Scott, no need to get your nose out of joint. I personally beleive bait should be banned everywhere or anytime you are fishing and plan on releasing fish. Restrictions that are inplace to protect coho's are for the most part to prevent Thompson river fish so I don't agree with using bait to catch cohos in the Fraser or bait to catch any other fish intended for release. It has to do with the depth of the hook placement. I don't feel that steelhead are anymore superior to salmon as far as existence, so I personally don't use bait. Bait is NEVER mandotory to catch fish. Fishing my be tough but catching fish is really secondary to the outing in my opinion.

According to Paul Harvey (from "and this is the rest of the story" fame), the Americans are calling for an exceptional salmon year. Seems a heck of a lot of springs have been counted passing one of the billion obstacles on the Columbia (wherever they do their fish counting). Last year was awful according to them and this year is exceptional. Am I wrong in being a little worried?

1. Wild steelhead rivers? What about on a wild steelhead river where the pressure is not on? We should be able to kill a fish or two then, No? Possible CP isn’t such a barbarian after all? 2. Based on your knowledge of salmonid stocks do you not think those Upper Fraser chinooks are in as rough of shape as your Vancouver Island steelhead? I would be interested in how you seem to differentiate the difference between endangered/threatened steelhead and endangered/threatened table fare chinook. Upper Fraser tribs have received inadequate seeding for years! (recon. Data) Babies? Keep up the good work Scott. Someday you will be as informed as your counterparts and possibly heading up a ‘One off’ chapter of some angling society that naive youngsters pour their tip money into. We are all your friends here Scott, we just don’t want you to wake up screaming in the middle of the night realizing that everything you see on Saturday mornings isn’t true.

Billy, I never once said that you could not kill a steelhead. If the runs can sustain it, obviously a kill fishery should be allowed (but obviously a lot of people don't agree with it). I mean if Jay Dore can catch fish almost everytime out, there must be enough fish to take the 1 per year you're allotted in the Skeena WAtershed, as I know whe fishes the Kalum River and various others. Regarding your comments about threatened steelhead, If you look at the Gold river, it is one river. The "lot" of the winter fish (not summer or spring fish) that enter the Gold are ..GOLD.. fish (I know that sounds funny). This is one wild river where there was a little skirmish a while back, obviously you having nothing better to do with your time have to bring it up. There is no hatchery on this river. If you knew anything about the upper tribs of the Fraser, you would understand that there are man made channels and what not on some of the upper fraser rivers tributaries. There are also 3 hatcheries in the upper and mid sections of the Fraser water shed that contribute chinook salmon to the run, of which if you did some research, you would know about. There is the Spius Creek hatchery, The Skeetchestn/Deadman Hatchery Project, along with the Shuswap river Hatchery, all contributing to Enhanching our chinook runs on the Fraser Watershed. There are also a few other projects going on pertaining to sockeye if you would like to know as well. This is a form of enhancement and it almost justifies as some will say, a kill fishery for the chinook salmon, since we pay taxes to operate these hatchery projects. The Wild steelhead on the Gold or any other river obviusly do it themselves as I've said in the past. If you're looking for a comparison between stocks you can not find it here and it is not justified, nor is this comparision even within the same ballpark. There are well over 50 tributaries which contribute to the Upper Fraser Chinook, and I would put down money there are a lot more than we think or know about. The Gold river is one river, with one race of winter steelhead. There is no hatchery there. Lastly, Jay Dore is obviously within the law with him bonking his one steelhead per year (or so he says)...I never once said he was a barbarian, its just my personal opinion that wild steelhead should be released. Keep in mind Billy, everyone is entitled to their opinions, and I have mine. Theres no need for you to try and convince me otherwise, just like theres no need in trying to convince Jay Dore in trying to buy something else other than a Loomis Rod. And Lastly, just a question, I've seen some of yours and his pictures on his website, and I'm just curious, do you guys take turns holding fish you both catch for pictures? Sorry, I just see you guys looking like you hold a lot of the same fish in a lot of similar pictures, I dont know, Maybe its just me... Paul, and Tyler, I dont know if you've read it, but Roderick Haig Brown's book "Return to the River," is about the Columbia River chinook and might enlighten you to some of the damage that has gone on, and this book was written ages and ages ago.... Scott

Scott, I believe Billy was referring to the upper Fraser stocks not the Thompson River strain. Chinook go all the way up the Nechako above Fort Fraser. There is also the Quenell River stocks as well. I am not much of a fisheries guy nor am I from Vancouver Island but common sense would say that if you are fishing in Gold River you would be catching Gold River steelhead. If you are fishing in the Lower Fraser you would not know which fish you are catching. It could be Thompson Stocks or the stocks which are endangered up here. It is sort of like being last in line at feed trough by the time the fish get up here they are few and far between. Some runs are down to a few hundred fish but nobody misses them down south. Just something to think about before you guys down there kill a chinook.

Robbie, Your last point is an excellent one and one that perhaps Fisheries and Oceans Canada (and all us southern anglers) has not paid enough attention to in the past. How are the Nechako stocks doing and what type of return did you have last year? I worked for DFO, critiquing the EIA conducted by Envirocon for Alcan's Kemano Completion Project many years ago (almost 20). The biggest concern for DFO then was Nechako Chinook stocks. I remember that if Alcan had their way (which they didn't, thank goodness) they would have reduced the existing flow of Nechako to less than 1/10th of its state at that time. I can't remember what the cfs was at that point. I do remember though that had they been allowed all the water they wanted, the Nechako would have frozen solid to the gravel every winter. Do you know what the present legal requirements are for releases at Kenney Dam? You are right that more attention should be paid to upper fraser chinook stocks. The biggest culprit in the past was always Commercial fisheries. It would be very interesting to find out which sector was the largest harvester of in-river chinook stocks last summer.I think it would be recreational anglers. Cheers

Robbie, Fish are present in the Fraser throughout the Spring and well into the summer and all the way until December. There are obviusly two distinct varieties we like to think about, although there are some stocks that intermingle with the later ones. Generally the early fish are reds, and the later fish are regarded as whites, atlhough you will find some reds and whites withint each others realm. Anyways, The Red Chinook are what I"m talking about, or the majority of the Spring/Summer fish. Now, obviously these fish all spawn. It is known that in general, but not all cases, the early fish tend to spawn at a similar time. In this case, with the "red" fish, they generally spawn anywhere between July to August or even well into September.. Now, These fish have to travel great distances. The fish that travel the farthest distances, are the earliest fish to enter. It's been proven. If you were fishing for Winter springs in the early winter in December and January, you'd be hitting Bowron Lakes fish and Nechako fish and other strains. These fish are migrating through the saltwater section and anglers may take them if they can find the odd one within the regualar feeders and amongst all the Columbia fish migrating as well.The "lot" of these early fish are coming at a time when anglers CAN NOT kill them, if not all of them. It is also well known that the fish that travel the shorter distances and the stocks that are probably in better shape travel the least distances, for instance the Vedder and Chehalis fish which are heavily enhanced travel into the Fraser anywhere from Late April to Late June. A lot of these fish are intercepted by anglers and a lot of hopeful anglers target these fish. This is why when the Vedder system is closed, you will find a lot of anglers concentrated in bars below the Vedder and in boats at the mouth of the Vedder system trolling Spoons and what not. So in reality, the May 1st opening does make some form of sense by the FOC. Any guys getting fish in the bars above the Vedder and Harrison (chehalis) systems are getting the fish that travel the distances that aren't as far, such as some of the Thompson fish (which are regarded as upper Fraser watershed fish as well in my honest opinion, as they travel a very similar distance), but as I mentioned, they are enhanced. So in reality, there isn't really all that much of a problem is there, as not too many guys angle for early chinook catch and relesae, they're angling for steelhead for the most part. Scott

Scott, I am aware that there are Red and White springs but you surely can't say that you know exactly where those fish are heading when you catch them in the Lower Fraser. I do not understand your point about winter springs though. From what I know winter springs are mainly feeders in the 6 - 15 lb range. They are either going to spawn in the late fall or the following year. How does this apply to Upper Fraser chinook? I am quite sure not all winter springs are Columbians or Upper Fraser fish. Figuring by the arrival times of our fish they would most likely be entering the river at the same time as the Vedder and Chehalis fish if your information is correct. If you are saying that the fish migrate earlier in the winter they may have a problem with ice. You could be correct but I have never heard of March run chinook up here. I think fisheries people call it a mixed stock fishery. Finnaddict. I will ask around and find the answers to your questions concerning Nechako springs. I do know that the cold water release starts in July and I thought it was for sockeye but I could be wrong.

Scott, It is better to say nothing and have people presume you a fool instead of opening your mouth and removing all doubt. Prof.

Sorry Scott but I believe you may be mistaken on a number of points in your last post. Please don't take this as an assault on your character or any sort of insult, but merely as information being shared. Thompson Chinooks are not considered "Upper Fraser Stocks" as you have defined them. The point at which they enter the Thompson river is Lytton, hardly "upper" Fraser considering the length of the Fraser. I believe that DFO defines Upper Fraser stocks as those from the Quesnel and points further north, such as the Nechako. You are also incorrect in assuming that all chinooks that enter the Fraser before May 1 are all Upper Fraser chinooks. (The Lilloett R. Spring run is a prime example as they have been in the system since the beginning of March). Timing of entry into the Fraser has some bearing on location of spawning but it is not the only factor. Remember that these fish which travel great distances are also doing so at an incredible rate of speed. Some of the Sockeye that enter the Fraser in late June are early run Stuarts and are on the spawning grounds within a month. The same migration pattern usually holds true for upper Fraser chinook. Much of this is dependant on the transition that salmon (different than steelhead) endure going back into fresh water. If I remember correctly, the need to maintain the ion balance required to become a fresh water fish again, sets the salmon's aging cycle into rapid overdrive. So they are at that point on a mission and don't have the luxury of staying in the fresh water for long periods of time. Well, the springs await and I for one will be on the Fraser this weekend looking for them. I must admit though that after Robbie's posts, I will probably think twice before taking one home for dinner. (Oh I'd probably still take it...but I would think twice):-) Cheers, and tight lines to all

Chinook salmon return to their natal river during any month of the year. In the Fraser there are there are two distinct runs: an early run peaking in June/July and a late run peaking in September/October. The Fraser also has a third smaller run that peaks in August. Headwater chinook (fish that migrate to headwater tributaries) have developed a life strategy that will allow them to take advantage of peak summer flows to reach their spawing areas. Variation from peak run timing is a life history technique/strategy that all salmonids tend to demonstrate. This survival mechanism allows them to protect the species against loss or demise due to an environmental catastrophe (i.e low water event, flooding, slides...) If there was no variation within a spawning run recolonization would not be possible and fish would not be able to expand their normal ranges. Scott: you forgot to emphasize words such as generally, frequently, often, tend to... I don’t think your peers did. Ion balance? Wow I just read that page! Informative post FA.

FinAddict, I take all your points well and I understand what you are trying to say, maybe I shouldn't have been so harsh with what I say in terms of making things in stone. I have come to the understanding though, that the Lilooet fish don't peak until May. This isn't any science, this is from fishing buddies. Billy, what you are saying sounds all great and beautiful, but what I don't understand is a chinook is up in Alaska, and it all of a sudden feels this overwhelming urge to Migrate, does it call up some if its buddies in the Fraser and say "Hows the river doing? Should we wait?" NO, the fish migrate because they feel this over whelming urge inside them which is driving them nuts! Its changing their insides around. The fish have been in the Fraser since February. That is when reports of Springs have been coming in since. The Fraser has been dirt low for the past two monthes and even now, there are very small signs of the early Freshet. Snow melts here and there, but nothing spectacular to say the least. I've been keeping Close tabs on that river level site, and it doens't appear as though the Fraser is really rising at all really yet, yet the Albion Test fishery is getting fish here and there, and in respectable numbers. YOu are right, the fish do peak in numbers, in June and July. according to the Albion Test fishery. The Majority of the later fish are for the closer river systems such as the Vedder and Chehalis, which have runs that are many many times larger than the upper runs. The Albion Test fishery is in Mission, the largest early summer chinook runs occur on the Vedder and Chehalis in the Chilliwack and Harrison areas. Therefore, these fish are counted into the run totals, often times diluting the real numbers of origional headwater wild fish. I think this makes sense, or do you have reason to disagree? These fish (Vedder and Chehalis) don't start entering the Fraser in real numbers until Mid June and Late June. What a conicidence, this is when Albion Test fishery counts the most chinoook in the river! I'm sure there are also some higher up fish that enter, like if you notice in the Salmon Supplement, there are openings on Thompson Rivers here and there in July and August. These fish are obviously later fish as well, and mostly enhanced fish. So what this says to me, is the majority, NOT ALL, of the fish that enter the river after the opening are from enhanced systems, and systems that are not in the Upper Fraser. Anything else anyone add to this discussion? Thanks for the info everyone. Scott

Why argue when you don't know what your talking about. I agree with John on this one. It did develop some interesting information and shows how much Billy and Fin know about chinook. Thanks for the refresher guys.

Hey Double CAT, isn't that life for ya! A week before I leave the world of electricity and you're finally agreeing with something I said!:) I guess I have something to look forward to should I ever come back to the internet. Take care, Prof.

Why dont you computer nerds get out there and sling some guts and fill a cooler or two. And I also want to know how many Fraser springs (Red or White)little Scotty boy has under his belt! Hey Catostomus,When do the springs start up in your system?And when the fish are in,how many luckys get killed on a average day of angling on the Skeena?

My point is that the Americans are raving about the returns on the Columbia. As we all know, thank you very much Scott, spring runs down south here are being hit pretty hard. Let's say the Columbia run this year is even ten percent higher than last year. One word from some guy at a fish counter and they'll all have their seine nets (or whatever is fricken legal) in the water lapping up the last of the run.

Thanks John. You often have good things to say it is only sometimes I disagree with them. People forget the good and remember the bad. Dough we are getting about one a night. Lost a blackmouth last night. Must have been the 8/0 hook. Better get your liver in shape for the summer

FYI Scott: There is a small run of springs that enters the Chilliwack/Vedder system in early March. Not too many people know about them. I know because I have hooked into a few of them (usually one every couple of years). They have to be the strongest fish I have ever fought on that, or any other, river in BC to date. I hooked one last year during high water and the sucker tore right across the river through some of the heaviest water I have seen. Burned both of my thumbs as it stripped my reel. I fought it for almost 20 minutes, finally getting it close enough to shore that I could see it. It had to be over 30 lbs. It then made another run upstream through heavy water peeling at least 200 feet of line off my reel in just a few seconds. I think my weight got jammed under a boulder and the leader snapped and I ended up losing the fish. I know of at least 4 other fishers who have also hooked into these fish and not one of them have landed any. Any others out there with similar observations?

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