Which organization is for you? Survey,

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We currently have a variety of organizations that benefit fish in BC, I'm only going to concentrate on the 4 most known (at least to me) here for which I will be asking a few questions and I hope you can respond. Here are the following organizations followed by their homepages and I encourage you to visit them and find out what they're all about if you don't already know. Trout Unlimited Canada BC chapter www.tu.org Steelhead Society of BC www.steelheadsociety.com BC Federation of Drift Fishers www.bcfdf.com BC Federation of Fly fishers www.bcfff.bc.ca I would like to ask you a few questions and if everyone/anyone could please respond with as many answers as possible I would greatly appreciate it. 1) Are you currently a member of any of the organizations listed above? 2) Have you ever been a member of any of the organization(s) above, why did you decide to leave the particular organizations(s)? 3) Have you ever considered joining an organization before but weren't sure which to join or were skeptical about a few things of any of the organizations which you hoped to join? 4) If you are not currently in an organizatin listed above, which of these organization(s) did you feel if you joined it, would best represent your interests? 5) After viewing these homepages/from things you've heard, do you feel that all or some of these organizations represent a similar goal/way of thinking despite some minor differences? Do you feel "a" common goal (which to me sounds like the protection/conservation and habitat restoration of fish, and preservation of fisheries/anglers being prioritized through common sense fisheries management) is present and is more important than minor differences which some of the organizations may have? 6) do you feel that price of membership is a deciding factor if the organization represents your beliefs and ideals? If the organization suited your beliefs 100 percent, would you pay up to 100 dollars to join it for the year? How much would you spend? 7) What things/beliefs of any of these organizations do you disagree with? Anything? Any more honest justified comments or explanations about the organizations above are encourange/welcomed. An organization pertaining to your passion may be a good way to go. Aside from the politics all the time you can meet a lot of great people and learn more about the sport. Do you agree with that comment? One last question. 8) do you think our interests could be bettered if there was one organization (aka we got our sh*t together) as opposed to 4 with a lot of diversity instead of 4 organizations? Do you think such a thing is possible (as I talked about in the Thompson discussion). But in the mean time, if we join all 4 organizations seperately, it looks like we have 4 people instead of one hehe... Thanks for any replies to any questions. Scott PS any organizations I missed which you feel I should have included, please include.

For easier linking, sorry. http://www.steelheadsociety.com http://www.bcfdf.com http://www.tu.org http://www.bcfff.bc.ca Also, please reply wholeheartedly and honestly and don't let others replies influence your replies. Answer from your perspective. Scott

Don't be a follower. Be a leader.

All these organizations look like they are very fine organizations but I would not join any of them. Especially for $100.00 per year. I am a member of the BC Wildlife Federation through the Rod and gun club that I belong to. Both my son and I have donated our time and exertise to the BCWF and The Rod and Gun Clubs over the past few years. I feel that this organaization has a concern for ALL wildlife and conservation/habitat throughout all of BC not just certain sections. I feel that this organization is also striving to teach women outdoor activities and skills through its BOW programs. I know of no other organization in BC that has developed a program that has been able to reach so many women. If I am to remain with any organization it would be this one. A question that I would put to you would be: What is the percentage of your free time that you would be willing to put towards a project of one of these organaizations or any other organization? I have seen so many people do so much talking and they are so busy patting themselves on the back that they have no time to actually do any hands on work for any projects. It doesn't really matter which organization you belong to. What matters is are you willing to become involved in your organization and actually put in the hours and do the physical work that is necessary to see that a project is completed! -I would not wish that all 4 organizations become 1. I have seen so many organizations become so political that eventually nothing gets done and there is only bickering within the ranks. At least if there are 4 groups 1 or more should be able to be working on projects while the others are having their political difficulties.

Im not with these organizations, so I cant really answer any of these questions. Yes, Scotts posts are long, I dont usually read all of them. So? Who do you think makes these organizations happen? It sure isnt people with 2 lines of things to say. I actually find some good information in all of that 'rubbish'... ;) Chris

Carole.... I can assure you that the 4 listed organizations will NOT become one. We are all too fundamentaly different.In general we do tend to agree and work together on most issues, and in fact 3 of us have formed the "alliance of angling association" to combine our voices on issues that effect the fishery as a whole. (bcwf has observer status at this point only) The BCFDF is currently fighting a BCWF attempt to have a wild steelhead kill opened on the Skeena, evidence of our fundamental differences. Cal director BCFDF (scott you are forcing me to get my webpage updated faster than I was hoping too :) )

Cal, The BCWF states that "Skeena summer runs in the last several years have returned in numbers well above conservation levels." and "The BCWF is requesting that provincial fisheries officials provide an opportunity for a small retention fishery limited to one fish per year." Elsewhere on this board both Tim and Scott suggest there is a lack of steelhead. Who should I believe? An organization that I respect or people that I know nothing about. The BCWF is talking 1 fish per fisherman per year. I don't think that every fisherman in BC is going to rush to the skeena river because they are allowed to retain 1 steelhead a year. Would it really cause that much damage if the fishermen that fish there were allowed to keep 1 steelhead a year? I am glad to hear that these organizations are not banding together under one roof. I am also glad to hear that there are people here who are not afraid to step up to the plate and work for a cause. I applaud you Cal for the time and effort that you must be putting into your organization. I have heard debate on who should get to fish and how many may be taken and when they may be taken so much that I don't think any body has the right answer. I think it all just comes down to common sense. I have a few questions running through my head that I would like answered to help me come to a conclusion regarding this matter. My son has fished for 7 years and has only been able to retain 3 salmon. When you were young were there limits of what you could keep and were streams and other fishing areas constantly closed to you for fishing? Do you think that we are building a strong future generation of fishermen/women by stopping kids from fishing or taking their catch home? Do you think that there will be any fish left for them and their kids when some (a lot even on this board by the sounds of things)are fishing daily or weekly and catching and retaining their limit each time they go fishing? Or worse, taking fish that are already stressed and half-dead out of the water so that these fishermen can get their prized pictures (that I see appearing regularly on many sites) then throwing them back in the water and expecting them to live. Would you be willing to make a compromise and allow steelhead, 1 per year to be retained by kids only? Could we lower the amount of all salmon that may be retained to ensure a future sport fishery and a future generation of fishermen/women? Are the men here on this board who have had a lifetime of an enjoyable sport prepared to give up salmon and steelhead and dolly vardin and sturgeon fishing totally for 4 years to ensure a future sport for future generations? My son did catch many trout, plus a nice cutthroat and 1 salmon this year. He retained none as either he wasn't allowed to because of regs or we were travelling and it would be a waste to keep the trout while travelling. I still say a kid keeping 1 fish (not trout, carp, or bullhead) per year would cause less damage to the fishing stocks then allowing grown men to fish everyday and keep 4 fish per day. Do you think that todays fishermen/women are being fair to the next generation of fishermen/women or are todays fishermen thinking only of themselves? It is easy for some of you to say go fishing more but remember kids don't drive. It is unsafe for girls to go anywhere by themselves these days. Especially riverbanks! Kids are at the mercy of their parents and siblings schedules. They also have homework (that is a lot harder and more to it then you or I ever had)and team sports on top of school. They have less time then most of you do to go out fishing. When they do get to go out fishing and they do catch something, they should be allowed to keep at least 1 per year. I am talking Salmon and Steelhead here not brook trout.

Hey Carole, Ivar Larson isn't talking about 1 Steelhead per year, its already the limit so why would he complain/post some kind of news release. He must be talking about more if hes complaining, for the entire year you're allowed 1 steelhead out of the entire Skeena Watershed. He talks about "Surplus Steelhead." He is talking about fish as if he is a god of stocks or something. Any system in the Skeena is a wild Steelhead system which is producing to or close to its natural capacity for Steelhead production in the wild. Therefore the system will not produce any "Surplus Steelhead," only enough to its capacity and to support their young after spawning. I emailed Ivar personally about Skeena Steelhead and I never got a response. I wasn't zealous or over the hill in what I said, I just listed a few facts. If he truly had an argument, would he not have returned an email if he is from a worthy organization, which him as the president would want people to join and support? Carole, it also appears as though we have enough damaged Steelhead stocks in the province, do we really need more damaged steelhead stocks in the province? Believe it or not there are some cases where Steelhead fishers have fished out a run. Keep in mind a lot of the places where you can keep 4 fish per day are basically heavily hatchery enhanced systems. We pay for hatcheries with our tax money, therefore I got no problem with people keeping hatchery fish. Hatchery fish should have minimal spawning escapements, or in the long run they could impact wild salmon populations which is what we don't want. In reality they're there to protect Wild Salmon populations and release techniques by the hatchery are there so that they don't impact Wild salmon populations as juveniles. Do you really have a problem with that? I personally have a problem with poachers, unmonitored native food fisheries as well as commercial fisheries fishing out runs, and habitat being destroyed. Scott

Scott: If you really want to join something, join a church… You could head a Christian/Catholic fishing club that does campouts and fishing trips, you could bombard all our rivers and get everything paid for (at the same time, no kidding). It could be an organization for troubled kids that haven’t quite found their way. Just think; after a hard day of hitting the water you could stay up all night debating creationism, praying for a better tomorrow, and sharing experiences with other troubled kids who may have looked at their Daddy’s porno mag, sipped a little hooch or lifted a licorice from the corner store. Don’t get me wrong I’m not slagging churches. I’m just mentioning another group that may better suite your needs. After all each and everyone of us is searching to better ourselves, maybe we should start thinking spiritually and everything else will just fall into place. Instead of bickering about salmon stocks being depressed, we could just accept it as God’s will. Be a leader Scott, This is a fantastic opportunity for you... Surround yourself with influential children and soon you will be messiah.

Carole, There is one point that the BCWF is missing in their push to have a limited retention fishery on the Skeena. That is overall steelhead conservation. Right now we are pushing for commercial fishermen to revive and release all steelhead caught during sockeye openings. One of the main reasons the steelhead fishery has been so good in the last 3 years has been a limited commercial fishery in order to protect upper Skeena coho stocks. When these coho stocks rebound it will once again be open season for the commercial boys. With a steelhead retention fishery in place the commercial interests will have all the ammunition in the world to keep on fishing with a steelhead bycatch. I don't think any true steelheader wants this. RBJ

I’m not sure how things are up North (Skeena), but I know down South people have given up fishing because we can no longer retain fish. I see people driving from miles around to kill one fish on the vedder, chehalis, squamish systems. Why wouldn’t they do the same up North. Right now we have x number of anglers who fish because they love the sport (retention or not). How many more anglers would we have if we could retain a fish or two and how many anglers who already have licenses would retain a fish because they can? If you don’t think people will drive from miles around to retain a fish you are pretty nieve. People charter boats off the West Coast to retain rockfish don’t they? If six buddies and I could drive up to the Skeena to kill six steelhead, I’d be renting a van tomorrow.

JACK Where cant you kill a steelhead down here on the coast?? Numbers of fisherman, and steelhead licences are on a steady rise up ^ . I just dont understand your points? Perhaps you only fished the Thompson, and are bitter that they took the Kill off the river? You are more than welcome to put on your traffic safety vest, and wade into the maddness we call the Vedder River here, and Kill 2 Steelhead a day. All I can say is that I wouldnt miss it if they put an immediate no kill on steelhead province wide, It would thin out the throngs at the vedder, and make the fishery enjoyable again. Nothing worse than seeing a beak drag a wild steelhead up on the beach to thrash itself to death, because theres a chance that he can bonk it. I cant understand people that will only fish steelhead if they can kill them.? I really dont get it! I have gone to the Island and fished dozens of non-hatchery rivers and have only ever run into ONE other angler, he was from the mainland too. WHile the STamp had a fisherman on every rock. I just dont get it? I have no morale problem with bonking a fish, if it was a hatchery raised fish, or as in the Skeena Situation an "abundance of stock". The problem with the Skeena situation, is that there are other issues to consider. The reason that the Skeena Steelhead are doing as well as they are is that there are hard fought agreements in place with First Nations and Commercial Fishers, to NOT target them, and to stay off the river as they go through. If the BCWF lobby gets there way, even a limited 1 fish per year kill, the First Nations and Commercial groups will ignore those agreements and Fish them back to extinction. That is the real issue. And for one BBQ a year, a price Im not willing to pay anywhere. Cal

Carole... I realize that there are not many opportunities up North to Kill a Steelhead. That is stricly because there are not many hatcheries that raise Steelhead that can be killed. You should cherish this, and realize that ultimately this is the best thing for your kids. I wish you could see what we have here for a fishery, With 3-4 thousand anglers a day fishing a river. Sometimes we have 100 anglers lining both sides of a productive runs, fist fights as a less experianced angler crosses a few lines on a cast. Garbage lining the banks of our rivers, and a lot of other things that a kill fishery brings with it. This is a price that you do not want to pay especially for your kids. Take them to the river, fish in relative solitude,(if you cant see 50 anglers we call that solitude) Kill a fish where and when you can, and they will grow up to respect the sport, and the fish, for more than just a food source. Cal

The use of the word ‘beak’, and not understanding why people only fish if they can kill steelhead tells me a lot about you Cal. If we allowed a kill fishery on the skeena in excess of what we have now possibly we would decrease pressure on our local systems. Anglers would start travelling further abroad to kill their one fish (as you have in travelling to the island to catch your one fish). Would this decrease pressures on the vedder or would other anglers wishing to kill fish fill spots that are now void on the vedder? I don’t know. If I can kill steelhead in a remote wilderness experience, as my ancestors did, sign me up. I’ll go out and by a steelhead tag tomorrow. People travel to the Skeena from all over the world to catch and retain chinook and coho why wouldn’t they do the same for steelhead?

"3-4 thousand anglers a day fishing a river. Sometimes we have 100 anglers lining both sides of a productive runs, fist fights as a less experianced angler crosses a few lines on a cast. Garbage lining the banks of our rivers, and a lot of other things that a kill fishery brings with it." Some good reasons why I didn't buy a Steelhead Stamp this year,under present circumstances I can't ever see buying another one again. Enough is enough.

All these posts and at the moment can not comprehend any of it and can't type. Waaas in a car accident today . Will read these and learn something and post back when better. Carole

I use the word "BEAK" as the only word I could use in this forum that would be considered acceptable. I have no use for people that dont understand just how valueable a resource Steelhead are. I make no appologies for that. When I see people mishandling wild steelhead, and boot them back into the water in disgust because it isnt a hatchery fish, I am utterly disgusted. There is no educating them, period. I dont go to Vancouver Island so I can kill a fish. I go there to fish wild rivers where you cant kill a fish. I Hate it when people cant understand plain english, then post something that I didnt say.(see above post) Your post tells me a lot about you too Jack..... Carl.....there are lots of rivers that you can still enjoy Steelhead fishing, without the problems associated with the kill fisheries. Email me and I will fill you in on a few. Carole.....Hope all is ok, and you get back to posting soon. Sorry to hear of your accident.

Cal, All I can say is that you are a poor representative for your organization. I first got the foul taste of the BCFDF a few years ago during a trip to Gold River. I had been fishing the river for years and had become familiar with every root,rock and tree on all the trails down to the river. The first thing I saw when I hopped out of truck at first light was a cheap ass laminated piece of garbage stapled to the first tree on the trail. BCFDF right on the top. They were on every trail in the lower river just like the flyers guys put up for a garage sale. It made me so sick to my stomach that I proceeded to remove all of the BCFDF garbage from the trees and placed it in the proper recepticle. BCFDF has no place on Vancouver Island and neither do its members. And don't give me some BS story about founding members being from the Island because they are not welcome either. Lower mainland ethics and attitude is the biggest threat to the future of our steelhead fisheries. The next biggest threat is the presence of the ill informed in positions of power within the various lobby groups. The only signs I have seen on the river that have any taste are the old Steelhead Society ones that are nice painted wooden ones identifying hatchery vs wild fish.

Cato, you speak only once in a foul tongue ... and that's when you talk about "lower mainland ethics and attitude" T'ain't no such thing, lad, and you should get over it. There are only two things that distinguish the lower mainland sport fishery from any other sport fishery in BC - sheer numbers (which leads inevitably and mathematically to greater numbers of "beaks"); and the square metres available to each angler (another math function). There ain't no magic to being a northerner - for now, you're just more fortunate. Hope it continues, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

Bobber, We should try a little experiment. Take a dozen guys from the lower mainland and transplant them on a pristine river. It would be my hypothesis that you would be able to find them all within a stones throw from each other trying to beat the next guy to the hole. The funny thing is that local cars or trucks are like magnets to a lower mainlander. With snow it gets even better. One time at Gold River we parked on the mainline because there was so much snow. We proceeded to walk down towards the river but when we got half way up to the hole ahead of us we saw that there was a couple of guys already fishing the hole. We decided to head back downstream so we proceeded to grab some ass time on a log and take a breather before slogging through thigh deep snow back to the truck. As we were sitting there quietly we watched a couple of city boys creeping along the trail following our tracks like a hound hot on a fresh track. Those dumb bastards almost went right past us until we asked them what them were doing. We told them that there was a couple of guys fishing the hole upstream. They said that was fine and started to go. We asked if they had ever fished up there before and they replied that they hadn't as they had just come over from Vancouver. We informed them that there was only room for a couple of guys up there which is why we were heading back down the trail. They said that was fine and kept on trucking upstream totally clueless that they might be intruding on someone elses day of fishing. Bobber you know I have nothing against you or your kin. It is the rest of the gerbils caged up around you that give me a problem. If you think that our rivers aren't crowded then you haven't spent much time up here. This is where overcrowding was invented. Check the Kitimat out or even the Skeena during prime time. These guys don't fool around with talk. To them you are getting in the way of their next meal.

Cato...When I click on your name I see a nice dead wild steelhead....Maybe why you ripped down our posters on handling/ Catch and release huh? Looks like a digital photo too....recent hmmm? ALL I can say dude is that your attitude is brutal, and ripping down our posters isnt going to stop the BCFDF from coming to the island....We have a large membership there already and 7 directors, and a soon to be set up chapter. As for lower mainlanders, what an idiotic statement. Ill leave it at that....I think you are a poor representitve of the Island anglers.

Idiot? Look a little closer Cal . Looks to me like half the river is iced over. Pretty typical of the island I guess. Wow 3.25 am can’t sleep? Or where the girls at the Shark Club sick of the BS. Boy BCFDF has really come along way. One snot nosed kid moves from Port Alberni to Campbell River and soon the rest will follow. I really get a kick out of this considering I have eaten more smoked, baked, BBQ’d salmon at your fearless leader’s house than anywhere else. Isn’t it funny, six months ago someone couldn’t spell North Island, now he thinks he runs the joint. Where are the Island Anglers? Do they still exist? I would be interested in knowing how many steelhead tags are bought on the island by people over the age of 50? Or for that matter how many people over the age of 50 use a computer and are represented on this board.

Cato, You know you're absolutley right, how dare the BCFDF actually care so much for the fish as to put up signs detailing how to handle the fish with care, and how to release them unharmed. If they continue to do that, there may actually be some fish left in the river for you to selfishly destroy all by yourself. Why, if the BCFDF is even remotely successful, there may even be fish left to catch for others who aren't as holy as thou. God forbid, that anyone else should actually be able to fish for your fish. I used to think that you actually gave a damn about the fish. It is quite apparent now that the only thing you give a damn about, is you. Of all the threats to the continuance of our steelhead fisheries, it is your attitude that is the worst.

Jack.....As for where it is who cares. It points out his prejudice and thats my point. Ive been fishing for Steelhead for over 30 years and have never Killed a wild fish, much less proudly display a dead one on a public forum. Im not preaching a holier than thou attitude either, In my earlier post to you I said I dont have a problem with killing fish that are in harvestable surplus. What Fearless leader are you talking about on the Island Jack? Email me with the name and I will fill you in on the facts. I dont know anyone in the BCFDF that fits this profile "One snot nosed kid moves from Port Alberni to Campbell River and soon the rest will follow" ?? Would really like to know just who you are talking about. As for the time.....hehe Well I wish it was the Shark Club that kept me up that late last night all I can say :) Can you say sick 4 year old?

I take also down every BCFDF poster and place them in there proper environment ie Trash. We've have a majority of our east coast rivers closed which contributes to overcrowding on our remaining rivers and now we have an influx mainlanders trying to find the elusive wild steelhead. Something is going to have to be done to reduce angling effort on those streams.

Right Gill, Lets just cut off all connection with Vancouver Island. No more ferries, or boats or planes. Surround yourself with water and pretend its a moat and you're the king of the castle. Sorry to dissappoint you, but your rivers are my rivers too. Sticking your head in the proverbial sand and pretending that all us mainlanders are just going to go away isn't going to work. Consider yourself lucky that you have quick access to rivers that are essentially crowd free. I suggest you work towards improving the runs on Vancouver Island. Hell, you may even find that some of us evil mainlanders could even be an asset to you as we continously lobby for protection of those rivers that you would prefer we did not fish.

Cal, Whats a harvestable surplus, are you a member of the BCWF, I thought your organization spoke out against the BCWF's statements regarding surplus Steelhead on the Skeena. I think the only river you can truly say that will have a realistic harvestable surplus would be a hatchery enhanced river, so are you saying we should only fished hatchery enhanced rivers?

I think he was referring to salmon.

Fin, If everyone had my attitude we would have kicked Cal's and your ass off of Vancouver Island. Don't try to preach your garbage up here because it will fall on deaf ears. The BCFDF thrives on fear mongering and preys on those with little or no understanding of our fisheries. That is why they are so successful in the Lower Mainland. Actually it is kind of a joke that you get so serious about defending the BCFDF. If they had any integrity at all you could just sit back and shrug it off. But hey who the hell am I anyways. Grade 10 education and no credibility so to speak.

This debate is a little heated. I fished the great rivers on the Island for Years, the Gold, Stamp, Upper Heber, and watched them become not so great (I used to live in Cumberland--Not kidding, I know this opens me wide up to ridicule!!). I have never been part of a fishing club or organization, me and my cronies are enough. I can understand how that Cat fellow feels about his 'home' rivers. If you tell people things like the Englishman River used to be great for Steelhead, or My cousin and I in 1981 caught two steels in the Quatse that were 17 and 18 pounds, they would look at you like you where crazy. What has happened is that Van Isl rivers have been fished to death. The last bastions are the gold and a handful of others. I makes me sick and desparate. I now fish in rivers in the lower mainland a lot more than I fish on the island, because that is what is convenient for me. I have to agree that I would be sad to see the "vedder horde" ever make it those rivers that I mentioned. I would even be more sad, if they made it to some of my favorate rivers in the north. I don't care what anybody says, anyone who is willing to fish the Chehalis hatchery pool with 300 other guys elbow to elbow for cohos that are piled up at the hatchery outlet are not fishing, and have no clue what is meant by fishing. Bitter Bert the selfish protectionist

Scott....What i said in a past post is fundamentaly i dont have a personal problem with the concept of what the BCWF is lobbying for up north. I personally wouldnt partake, but I can understand their argument. The problem Is on the Skeena, there is First Nations, and Commercial Interests that dont fish the STeelhead (mainly because of sockeye conservation)and opening up a 1 fish per year Kill would end any agreements in place. BCFDF is opposed to the BCWF lobby, yes. Not all I say on this board or other discussion areas is BCFDF policy. I am an individual, and have my own thoughts on all issues. Sometimes I agree with the BCFDF official stand, sometimes I dont. I understand the Northern anglers frustrations, however I dont agree with them. I have for many years held the Wild Steelhead in High regard, but not as an icon. I have had in the past Huge days on the Squamish, when the locals bitched about a no kill fishery there. Less than 100 fish in the Squamish now. What Im trying to say is that the fragile balance is so easily tipped in the other direction, so err on the side of caution. Short sightedness and instant gratification cant be tolerated in steelhead management.

cal a hundred anglers a day on both sides of the bank.I dont think so

I can appreciate the passion in the above posts and I understand the animosity that many people feel towards those who travel from far and wide to exploit resources that local communities fight so hard to protect. Having once lived in many small BC communities i.e. Gold River, Tahsis and now Terrace, I have to tell you, there definitely is a difference in attitude between smaller community people and larger city folks (especially when it comes to fishing and hunting). For many of us in smaller communities the river is our backyard, we walk it daily, we notice misplaced rocks, we cringe at worn down trails. We also tend to notice that things usually go awry at the peak of the run or when fishing is at its best, which usually corresponds to when other people from other communities tend to show up (this is where the lower mainland gets a bad wrap, based solely on population). Tires sometimes get slashed, beer cans often get left on the shore and fists regularly fly. The run slows down, the weather turns bad and once again local folk are back on the river enjoying each other’s company. This may be small town ignorance, but I think a few bad seeds have really ruined it for the majority of anglers from the lower mainland. In many of the smaller communities we share a common bond and we become familiar with the way people act/react and we respect each other’s space and piece of the resource. I assume that you probably share the same respect towards people in your community, group or neighbourhood. I think the problem we see in the lower mainland v. the rest of the province war is people are unwilling to talk to each other, put personal issues and egos aside and admit our faults and wrongs. Many lower mainlanders have a long way to go in cleaning up their act and I would recommend that those of you do so as professionally as possible. If you wish to represent the small town angler on this board or in your groups (speaking for the silent majority), ask before you put up a poster on the wrong side of the property line. I guess we all share a common goal (anglers alike), but it’s no different than the animosity BC has towards Ottawa after all is said and done.

Billy.... I can understand your feelings for your rivers as i too live on a river here in the dreaded lower mainland. I have the same passion for it as you have for the gold or the skeena or whatever river you call home now. It sickens me too,to see people visit it and dump garbage on/in it. However I have zero problem with other anglers that respect it and fish it, even if it means they get to my holes before I do. There is disrespectful people here and on the Island. Let me relate a story to you of an experiance I had on the Island. A friend of mine and I made the journey through the snow to a remote river near Port Alberni. When we arrived (no easy task through the route we took) we came upon a game warden that had just arrested a group of Port Alberni residents that had driven up to the same river and first shot a cow elk and 2 calfs, then were killing wild steelhead in this river.Im sure the remoteness and the time of year made them think they had free reign to rape the resourse of anything they could. This stuff happens all over BC, up North, The Kootenies, here in the lower mainland, and the Island. There are lots of people that will take advantage, direspect, destroy, whatever they can, whenever they can, and they come from everywhere. We (lowermainlanders)do not hold exclusive rights to these deeds. Ive fished the Island for many years, and have NEVER had a problem with anyone, or has anyone had a problem with me. The rivers, lakes, streams, oceans, of this province are no ones exclusive domain. The attitude of ownership is admirable in stewardship issues, but in use of the resourse, no one has the right to deny anyone that. As in wishing to represent the small town angler, we have directors in most parts of the province. We have 6 or 7 directors on the Island, 2 in Northern BC, Terrace and Kitimat, One in the Okanagan, one in Prince George, one in the Cariboo,1 in the Charlottes, and even 1 in Washington state. We wouldnt expect to represent you from here, that just wouldnt work. We have gone out and found directors in the areas that our sport is prevalant. You can listen to what we are trying to do, or you can condem us as a bunch of rampant lowermainlanders trying to ruin your sport, whatever, thats your choice, but we will continue to do the work we are doing. Cal

Brad..... I think the official count one day at the scale bar was 730 anglers. The Chehailis hatchery pool can easily have 200 people on it or around it. Lickman road I counted 175 people there one Sunday afternoon, 90% of them were on the east bank. I stand by my statement and anyone that goes out to the Vedder Or Chehailis on a weekend would agree. Sad but true.....

I am an Island girl born and bred but stuck for now, living here on the mainland. I do most of my fishing on the Island since my parents have moved back there. My son and I find it more satisfying and rewarding. We go to our favourite little rivers and he goes one way while I go the other. Rarely to we come across other people. I enjoy the solitude and the river. I may catch the odd trout and then let it go to start all over again. My son catches many and releases them also. We salmon fish on the island every thanksgiving and so far have each caught 1 each time we have done this. All have been released. We fish because we love the sport we don't fish to put meat on the table. However it would be nice to see a kid catch, clean and then insist on cooking his fish for the family dinner once in awhile. (He does make a great salmon in fennel sauce!)Since starting to fish on the island I have lost the desire to do much fishing around here. I live in the lower mainland. I really don't want to go to the Veddar or the Chilliwack rivers. The more I hear about them the more I think it is a place I don't want to be. We went to the capilano a few times but that was people standing shoulder to shoulder and wasn't an enjoyable experience. I have spotted the Seymour river on my way skiing and may try that next year. It looks like a decent place to fish. I have read all the posts and as much as I can understand them (I'm still on analgesiacs etc.)I really am torn in regards to the Skeena. Yes, I can see the point about the natives and commercial fisheries fishing the river out. But, On the other hand I would like to keep the odd fish that my son catches. I don't care if I keep any but I do care if he gets to or not. Doesn't this have something to do with learning to be a man? You know, something about learning to put food on the table for the family and all that. Women just go to safeway but the men seem to have to take the long way about it and catch and kill it and proudly put it on the table for display. Isn't this part of the training to be the provider for his family when he is older, besides having an excuse to get away from responcibilities for a bit now and then?

Carole, So you're trying to justify killing Skeena Steelhead just so your boy can become a man? Gosh, theres plenty of girls out there for that isn't there? There are plenty of oppurtunities for your son to keep fish on rivers that you don't have to "TRY" and justify there being an opening for, nor do you have to go out on a limb defending what the BCWF is defending, or stating regarding "Surplus Steelhead." There are so many appeals to emotion now a days, that is especially so with having to do with hunting, however we have to appeal to logic to get the facts of the issue. I dont think anyone in here can truly say they appeal completely to logic (and thus they are completely vulcan), there will always be some touchy issues that stir our emotions as well. I think that if you take your son out on the Vedder Chilliwack or the Chehalis and you hike for a bit you will find some solitude and you can find ample oppurutunity to take home a Chinook, or a Hatchery coho for that matter. You have heard, but you have not seen. I know one pool, that I can think of right now, that becomes stacked with coho during salmon season on the Vedder, and roe drifted through it or a spoon will create what is called a "field day," for you and your son. You will have a stringer after and its all thanks to your tax money. I rarely ever see anyone on this spot either and thats on a Saturday and/or Sunday on the Vedder. Would you like some more examples? Cogburn Creek. Remote creek with hatchery enhanced coho that you can take home. Lots of great pocket water and some nice pools in this swift little bastard of a creek. Scott

Carole...... Also look at Suicide/ Noorish creek across the Fraser from where you are. A real decent coho run that allows kill, with minimal pressure. Walking up from the bridge where you park, to the lower canyon is a great way for a family to enjoy some quality solitary fishing. I did this last year with my 3yrd old and wife and we all enjoyed ourselves. Only people we seen that day were some Hikers pass us.

I am not trying to justify anything. I am telling you how I feel and what I think. That does not mean that what I think, is going to happen nor do I expect that it should. This is a discusion is it not. My son does not need to catch a fish to become a man. He is already basically a man. He has a job and works hard to get good grades. He is very self sufficient. And he is also very respectful. Just for your information I also have a 15 year old daughter and I hope she never goes out with a guy who's dad has a mentality like yours in which all a boy needs to grow up to be a man is to get a girl. Regarding the Skeena, It is really not in my world. I will most likely never go fishing there. But I still say I will stay a member of the BCWF. They do do some good for wildlife in our province. Go back to the original question that was asked. I gave an answer and you all jumped but I don't see to many answers to the original question.

Cal Where do you think I am? I am as close to the west coast on the mainland as you can get and almost walking distance to the border! where is the Noorish creek and what parking lot and canyon. I have never heard of it. The only places to fish around here are the piers in Richmond, Gary point in Steveston, The dump at Triangle Road and Deas Island park has a little warf you can fish off. Sometimes we go to Latimer pond for some muddy trout.

Carole, Whoah whoah whoah, a hint of sarcasm was in my post was it not (regarding the guy needs a girl to become a man). I dont know if I understand the english language, but your post also imposed to me at least that you thought you think your son should get to kill Skeena Steelhead. Cal: "The problem Is on the Skeena, there is First Nations, and Commercial Interests that dont fish the STeelhead (mainly because of sockeye conservation)and opening up a 1 fish per year Kill would end any agreements in place. BCFDF is opposed to the BCWF lobby, yes." You seem to iterate your position in undertanding this, but then you post this Carole: "I really am torn in regards to the Skeena. Yes, I can see the point about the natives and commercial fisheries fishing the river out. But, On the other hand I would like to keep the odd fish that my son catches. I don't care if I keep any but I do care if he gets to or not. Doesn't this have something to do with learning to be a man? You know, something about learning to put food on the table for the family and all that. Women just go to safeway but the men seem to have to take the long way about it and catch and kill it and proudly put it on the table for display. Isn't this part of the training to be the provider for his family when he is older, besides having an excuse to get away from responcibilities for a bit now and then? " ?????? Now, I am an Island born and partially raised boy straight from Campbell River. That doesn't give me any reason to think anything, but I think it does have a lot to do with my love of fishing and passion for the sport and respect for the fish. Hell, I remember when my dad was a guide at painters and he would take me out and we would kill coho out on the chuck and I would do all the cleaning. Who cares? I will say though that from who I've been influenced by and their logic which is LOGIC and not some emotional slander and a bunch of half truthes has convinced me and taught me to believe what I do. It has little do with where I grew up. Where I grew up is the foundation but what you believe is your evolution as a person. I think when you get to the point where logical things stirrs the emotional side of things in you, then you truly have something to defend. Scott

Scott Talking to you is like trying to talk to my husband! I have a hard time understanding anything that you are saying. I can understand Robbie and Cal but with you everything seems to get turned around and I can't make heads or tails of it. What I am is frustrated( and I can just imagine the snickers about the use of that word). I would like to know if you have kids. You do not seem to understand that there is very little left for kids to do these days. You were very lucky that your dad was a guide and I'll just bet you got lots of fishing in and I'll just bet that you got to keep more then your share of fish. You grew up in better times then the kids today are growing up in. Maybe I should not have started to post today. I hurt and I am angry and I am loaded from painkillers. But I read what you said and Its hard to see sarcasm in print. What I say or think about the Skeena problem is not going to have any impact on the decision as to what will be decided regarding the future of the Skeena therefor it doesn't really matter what I say or think. I really don't care if you believe it or not but Island people are different then mainlanders. They do have a different attitude and a different way of looking at things. I Give up for today and probably even tomorrow. But will be back! :) Carole

Carole, part of a fishing discussion boards is is gaining accurate information. If you are going to blindlessly support an organization which has done well for you in the past without thinking for yourself, then maybe you would be better off living in Germany in the 30's. Hitler brought about worker reforms and employement policies that were so good, that he brought them to believe in aggressive expansion and the killing of a race of people for no real apparent reason other then personal predjudice on Hitlers beliefs. What I am preaching is think for yourself. You seem to be advocating Killing Skeena Steelhead so your son can be a man. That is what you implied in an emotional cause. Cal brought about a very good point that if we kill Skeena Steelhead, the natives and commercials will take their shots at the Skeena Steelhead too (which will curtail a wonderful semi pristine sport fishery which generates many many dollars for the regions up there). Are you with me so far? Scott

Scott, Listen to me carefully. I can see your point of view and others that have been posted. It is you who are not seeing what others are trying to say. 1. I realize you want to keep the Steelhead in the Skeena and to have that river kept as a pristine environment. Yes I agree that is a good cause. I am not argueing against that. 2.I also do think that the BCWF has done some good for BC wildlife. Are you telling me they have done nothing good for BC Wildlife at all? 3.Do you think that Kids are going to spend money on gear and licenses etc if they can not keep a fish every once in a while when they go fishing. Do you think they will continue to spend money on gear and licenses etc. when they are older? 4. When all of you are dead and gone will there be any fisherpeople to continue the work that others started to keep our rivers and fish stocks healthy. Will the kids of today care tomorrow about the fish at all. 5.Do you realize how few boys in my area have actually gone or go fishing. Do you know how many kids (boys and girls) I have taken fishing just so that they would have an opportunity to try it and to see what it is like. I would expect that an avid fishermen like you has done the same thing. 6.Who has made it so bad so that either rivers are totally closed for fishing to kids or kids can not keep what they catch. The only answer to that can be those that came before them. Are you following me so far? Carole

Question for you Carole: Do any of the painkillers which you are currently taking have any mention of the phrase "Crack Pipe" in the instructions? 1) You appeared to be arguing against that, go reread some of your posts. 2)I too know the BCWF has done some good for BC wildlife, but, it appears as if Ivar Larson doesn't know much about Steelhead. He should stick to wildlife. This relates to number 1) when you were saying something about you felt it was alright to kill Skeena Steelhead. 3)What kind of question is this? So if you can't kill fish kids won't go fishing? If there was NO retention of fish in BC, I'd still fish. How about you guys? But thats not the case, there will always be something to take home as per set by the regulations provided we take care of the resource. Angling for kids often starts out with a curiousity of what a fish looks like and hwat it does when you hook it first off. Thats how it worked for me at least 4) Don't care for the question. If there are people to carry it on, great, if there aren't, well, I'll be fishing in Heaven hopefully. Fish and fishing are a personal issue for eveyone. 5) Thats great 6) Thats great, if kids need to keep everything they need to catch, take them to a stocked lake, as I said, there is plenty of places for retention of fish, so what are you bickering about?

Scott, The last time I checked on the BCWF they had a fellow that goes by the last name Narver. I have a feeling he knows a good deal about steelhead and fisheries management

Scott, why do you put so much energy into running off constructive new posters and being a jerk. Are you afraid they might have something intelligent to say, therefore making you look the idiot. When you say: "Question for you Carole: Do any of the painkillers which you are currently taking have any mention of the phrase "Crack Pipe" in the instructions?" Don't you think that kind of comment is totally out of line for this board, and will only have the effect of running off someone who has tried to be an intelligent contributor to discussions (as well as others that get sick and tired of your self centred BS). This isn't the first time nor the tenth. Are you afraid of not being able to dominate every topic (dominate measured in number of words only, not intelligent contribution). Give the lady a break, lighten up, get a life beyond fishing boards, find a girlfriend, anything just stop being such a boring idiot. The only consolation is that I think Carole could probably blow you away in just about anything you were to call her on, as she probably thinks before she acts or speaks, and that would make it no competition.

I am not going to take sides in this debate but I would say that getting involved in these organisations is like voting on election day. It is easy to get discoraged when reading the news about politics but we must exercise the right to vote on election day. The system cannot be changed by sitting on the sidelines. It is useless to bitch about fishing or politics if you are not going to get involved. If you are looking for an organisation that mirrors your opinions Scott you will never find it. None of us aree with everything that is done by groups we belong to but overall they do good work. If you wish to change the policy on a specific issue then add your voice to the debate. But you can't do that from the outside looking in. Ask yourself if you are going to vote on election day? Are you in full support of every single part of your chosen party's platform? I would doubt it. But you will still give it your vote.

Scott, you've had free rein here for about a week, and it's starting to show. Spare the rod, spoil the child. The reality is that most of your comments are regurgitated nonsense. I've seen it here, and on all of the other boards you frequent. Pseudo-intellectual claptrap, son, and it's all a waste of bandwidth. You started this thread just like you've started all the others - with some half-baked, preconceived notion of what the "right answer" is. And then you sit back, hoping someone will stray from the path of righteousness so you can badger them with more canned philosophy. Don't be telling others to think for themselves unless you've learned to think at all.

"Pseudo-intellectual claptrap". Bobber that says it all and very well indeed!

To get back on-thread... I approach my involvement in fisheries/conservation groups much the same as a financial portfolio. Let's call it a dynamic environmental portfolio. I support the Sierra Legal Defence Fund and the Sierra Club because I want an effective government watchdog. I'm currently a member of the BCFFF; the SSBC; the BCWF, and TUC-BC because they represent anglers and the fish. I used to belong to the BCFDF but haven't paid dues for a year or two because I believe they have their collective heads in the sand with regard to bait and Thompson steelhead. TA

Carole I think you are great. I have watched the various fishing boards for the last little while and have been too afraid to post. Mainly because of what happened when you spoke up for what you believe in. Sexist comments like the one Scott Kirkpatrick made have no place on a fishing board. Carole you have given me some inspiration to make a few posts of my own. Besides the worst that can happen is some guy jumps down my throat. Nothing I don't deal with everyday.

Hi Rebecca Thanks for the support. I really do appreciate it. I sure am glad to see there are more of us around. I would be more then willing to hear what you have to say. Hope to see you posting again! I'll still be here! :) Carole

Carole... I Realize you are on the Lower Mainland, I was sure I read once you were in the Abbotsford area. Suicide creek (Noorish) is on the North side of the Fraser between Mission and Harrison Bay, bout half way in between. I cant think of a better place to spend what should be a super sunny weekend than heading up there for a day. As for BCWF, I am also a member, and will continue to be so. I agree that they do a lot for the Wildlife/Hunters rights. They are way out to lunch on this Skeena issue (my opinion). But what group isnt out to lunch sometimes. So hang in there and do what you can, when you can, to help them out, all the groups that this thread mentioned could use dedicated people like you appear to be, to step in and help out. Robbie....as per your post, email me directly and I will respond to it. Cant post it sorry. Thompson Angler.. Bait is not an issue we hold only on the Thompson. We are fundamentaly opposed to Bait Bans and OR Gear type restrictions ANYWHERE. The main reasoning for this is as follows. We all grew up fishing with bait. Im sure I was still breastfeeding the day I first wormed a hook. As a provincial group we are representing anglers from all age groups, disablities, social/economic standings etc etc etc. What right has any special interest group to have any common resourse to themselves? For every died in the wool spey fisherman on the Thompson, theres an eldery couple that wishes to toss a worm in the local creek. For every centrepin loving driftfisher, theres a kid using power bait somewhere. We as an organization represent them all. Sure our core group is mainly comprised of Old Crusty Thompson River Rats, but with our growth we have attracted anglers from all walks of life also. We are Conservation first however, and would support a Bait Ban anywhere if anyone could show us a conservation reason that it was neccesary. On Steelhead no one has proven increased Mortality with Bait.....Period. MELPS Own Bait/artificial studies have shown zero difference in bait/wool/spinners mortalities. I dont want this thread to turn into a great bait debate...........please....... Just stating our stand,and how we arrived at it THATS ALL!! Like I said in the start of this post, No Group will go Mistake free. Maybe in your opinion our collective heads are in the sand on the Thompson Bait issue, But I ask you.......what about all the other work we have done on behalf of river fisherman? Im sure thats gotta be worth your renewal? If not so Be it.... Cal

Cal, Perhaps the mortality rate per capture remains the same among the various gear types; however, the exploitation rate is increased by the use of bait. You catch and recatch more fish right? Common sense, that's why people use bait in the first place. That's why fish techies use it to capture brood. Hence the greater risk to a threatened stock. I recognize that the Drifters have done and do a tremendous amount of work. I probably get more cc's from Clapton than anyone and I'd be happy to forward my dues again if we could get beyond this issue. TA

TA ^Thankfully this year we didnt have to get past it by default, and have some numbers to fish. Personally I agree with most of your statements, but reiterate If the bait isnt causing direct Mortality, even with the exploitation rate taken into account, why should anglers handicap themselves? The Tagging program on the Thompson and the Vedder has proven that multiple bait caught steelhead survive to spawn with little or no mortality. One thing I would gladly support is a hook size restriction (any comments?) MELPS own mortality estimates put last years hook Mortality at between 10-25 fish.(from all gear types) I hate to say this, as I know this will be taken wrong by some on this board, but this level has to be considered acceptable in consideration of whats at stake. We did not lobby for the river to be opened without a bait ban. Our official stand is "we will support any gear restriction that is scientifically proven to be in favour of conservation" I know you fundamentally disagree with this stand, and I now believe I know who Im talking to :) So I put it to you.......Prove it and we will gladly move on..... Cal

Cal, What's to prove? The more encounters with a fish, the greater the risk. We'll get old and senile before funding is found for the science on this one. Common sense needs to rule. To some the use of organic bait on the T is a minor issue, to others it's not. However, it is a line in the sand that prevents us all from working together. And we're not too far apart in my estimation. Hook sizes: I'm not sure if I follow your line of reasoning but, as a passionate Thompson trout fisher, I've come to realize that using too large a hook for the situation results in increased mortality. I don't use large hooks anymore. I don't accept that the estimated 10 to 25 fish mortality for last year IS acceptable. To the contrary, it is completely unacceptable. MELP should have shut the fishery down because every steelhead counts in that situation. We (all) were spending the steelhead principal. TA

Question 1) When did I ever make sexist comments? 2) Someone states that killing Skeena Steelhead is ok when they are at risk of being commercially threatened and native threatened and then I go against it and them I am flamed? 3) Bobber, when you're not bobbin, you're vying for womens attention, now whats the story? Carole, from the wording of her statements made it sound as if Killing Steelhead was ok on the Skeena because her son should get to kill one to become a man. Was I wrong in that analyzation? We then suggested some places to her to fish and I get no thanks or no anything back, or anything for that matter, neither does Cal for that matter. I could care less who you are posting, if you have a point and you back it up, that matters to me. If you want me to help you in the direction of a place where your son can catch fish, I'll try my best to assist you.

<7990&page=8/1044"> Cal, Just a few questions for you, personally. 1) If a fish encounters an angler, it is at risk of becoming a C and R mortality somewhere down the line right? 2) Relating to 1), do you think that the more a fish encounters an angler, the more of a chance it has of becoming a statistic in this C and R mortality syndrome ? 3) Which gear type catches more Thompson Summer Steelhead in your honest opinon, Bait, Gear (spoons, wool, spinners), or the fly rod? List in the order of most successful to least successful if you have any answer for that, or list all if you don't think it matters which gear type you use. Use yourself as an example. For instance if you knew you had to get into a fish as soon as possible, which gear type would you use first? Second? third? Thanks, Scott

<7991&page=8/1044"> TA...What I suggested in that post was limiting hook size as a way to reduce mortality, call it a compromise, either way I think it should be done anyway. Scott Bait catches more fish, Im not denying it, I aint stupid! Talking to one person that did C&R Mortality tests on the tagged Steelhead on the Vedder, the only mortality they had was on a spoon caught steelhead. And I assume that hook size was the leading casue there. Im jumping around a bit here bear with me im typing as thoughts come to head...Note time of post. All hooked fish are in peril of hook mortality Scott. Follow that Logic through a bit, the more they are hooked the greater the risk....TA's point is obviously clear and I dont argue that the more a fish is caught the more chances it has of succuming to hook mortality. Lets assume that every fish is hooked 5 times in a short period of time. I would guess that Mortality rates would be 75% or more. Who knows? We can only deal with fact, not some unprovable scenario that makes sence in the extreme. Steelhead Fight hard and are extremely hardy fish. They are way more durable than salmon. They take roe, and shrimp shallower in the mouth than does a coho. All facts. They recover well and very few 2-3% die due to hook mortality. Those rates dont change with bait or wool or flys or spinners. These are what results of tests have proven out. Tests done to support a bait ban I may add.....So the proponents of a bait ban have switched tactics and now stress the fact that bait catches more fish, so therefor should be banned. well this approach worked on the Island and now Van Isle is in process of a complete 100% Bait ban. They convinced one guy anyway. TA You know from the other discussion board you are a member of that I agree with you that last year the River shouldnt have opened. We didnt lobby for it to be opened. WHeres the line in the sand that all of our organizations should draw and agree to not fish? I personally believe its above 1000 fish, maybe even 2000? 2400 fish thats maybe a different story. The economics have to be considered, as well as the point that you made me clear of, the politics. I havent fished the thompson by personal choice for quite a few years. Then, when it closes, the arguement will come in about Stewardship, and gaurdianship of the fish.....and a whole new can of worms gets opened up. (couldnt resist that pun) TA.....At what number would you be comfortable in bait being used on the Thompson? 4000, 7000? Never? Are you comfortable that bait is allowed on the Skeena at runs of 23000? You see where im going with all of this.....Its going to be a never ending circle of arguements, battles, and unproductive use of all of our time. Ultimatley MELP will make the decisions, and we will all live with them. One thing that I can tell you for sure, is that more effort is going into pressuring MELP from our group, on other more critical issues (ie native targeting and harvest) that effect TRS than we put on them about bait. If they attempt to impose a bait ban we will fight it. But right now our efforts are focused elsewhere. Im sure Rod is keeping you informed on those efforts.This post took me 48 minutes to write Geeeeze I need a life :)

<7993&page=8/1044"> Cal, The other issue surrounding bait is disease. Can't you by fishing with bait bring disease amongst a population of fish? My next questionto you Cal is do you need Bait to catch Thompson Steelhead or Skeena Steelhead? I have also heard/seen fish in the Seymour broodstock pond, which were winter runs caught in December on roe, choke the bucket the next day from hooking mortalities. WE also had a cutthrot die on us about two weeks ago from a similar instance. Maybe broodstock anglers shouldn't fish with roe either? Cal, Another point is. This is kind of on the explanation side of things. We have these world class fisheries out there. Fisheries that we can never bring back if we don't protect our fish. The Dean is one of them, the Thompson is one of them. Why do we need bait on these fisheries? BAit is often regarded as the lowest form of Steelheading just because it catches the most fish, why do we need bait on world class fisheries if its for local fisheries? So you don't think, that by fishing roe we aren't inducing more Hooking mortalities on Thompson Steelhead because they are hooked more? Some friends of mine made a trip to the Thompson last week and while they pounded the river with spoons, spinners, wool, flies and everything artificial and there in between, a fellow that fished beside them at various times of the day caught 7 nice steelies on Crayfish. Right in front of their FACE! Now, I'd guess with the size of hook needed for crayfish, that one of those fish is DEAD RIGHT NOW. Also, Thompson Steelhead are big fish on a big river, hell I know that If I was fishing bait, the minimum hook size I would use is a 1/0 and I'd be fishing with golf ball size chunks of roe. Do you not think a 1/0 hook is a bit hasty for any steelhead fishery? Again, more fished hooked=more mortality therefore with a bait ban we are limiting ourselves to less mortalities on the Steelhead while still providing a world class fishery. Also, where did you arrive that Salmon survive C and R Less than Steelhead because Steelhead are a more hearty fish? Scott

Marianne, By looking at your E-mail address I have a feeling that you know Camp Olave in Sechelt. Is this a correct assumption? E-mail me if I am looking at this correctly. Carole

Carole, I live in Kitimat about 35 miles from Terrace. This is fishing heaven. I am just heading out to go fly fishing. Marianne

Marianne, Oh you are just too lucky! I'm so jealous. Let me know how the day went. Carole

Scott All my statements are from studies done that i have read. One of our directors has compiled a mountain of evidence on this issue. As for salmon vs Steelhead, its a well known fact that steelhead are a stronger more hearty Fish. They travel further in their sea journeys than do salmon, and dont have the same amount of the acid that builds up in a fish's system upon stress. Some Scientists believe that the reason Steelies strike roe is out of paternal instinct. They believe that the fish is redepositing the roe back upstream. As for other baits, aggresion seems to be the predominant factor for strikes. Either way they take the bait shallower than does a coho that will suck the bait deeper. Other Physical differences come into play also. The only hook Mortality study that I have seen that seems to indicate higher bait Mortality rates is one that was recently done on the Fraser river. This was done with bar rigs & Roe /vs Spin and Glows, and showed a higher hook Mortality. I can understand this as the fish has the time to suck it deeper before a bite is detected. This factor however transfered to flowing water/drifted bait, doesnt follow. Your Friends shoulda Switched to bait! Scott you in a way make my Point. Your Friends travelled from vancouver to Spences Bridge fished a whole day without a bite, While a veteran Thompson angler caught 7 in front of them. Whos right in this picture? Assuming 1 of his fish is dead is ridiculous. If he handled the fish properly, all those fish will survive to fight again/spawn. I can say the same thing about some of the FLy Guys I have witnessed on the Thompson. I have seen dudes hook fish with 8 weight single handers, and light leaders, and play that fish to absolute submission, up to 45 minutes. Whose fish is going to survive? The Guy who caught 7 and obviously didnt spend a long time landing them, or this dead tired fish that has used up all his energy? The Spey Fishers of the Thompson, the good ones, can hook and release fish just as fast as the best Bait guys. TA what is your best day on the Thompson? How many Fish hooked? You are one of the better ones That I have heard of. Your flys are the best Ive ever seen anyway.I used to know a surgeon from BBY GNRL that was a died in the wool FLY guy, fished with Lee Straight and the ole Boys club up there, he would tell me stories of 10, 12 fish days..I assume that most of the day he was into fish, or the numbers would have been greater. In general the bait Guys catch more fish I agree, why? Numbers........More Bait guys that are good at their craft, as opposed to fly guys that are good at their craft. I think if you took the best bait guy, and the best fly guy, and put them in their favorite spots, at the end of the day the hooked fish total would be similar. Ill ask you TA do you agree with this? Maybe Im way out too lunch and giving the SPEY guys way too much credit, but the days Ive witnessed it, seems to be the case.

Carole, Why don't you make a trip up north to Kitimat, I'm sure Marianne would be glad to take you out for a fish out. Its a beautiful area and they have a lot of fish for you to take home during the right season. I think I might go back up there for Chinook next year and possibly Steelhead in the Spring, I'll see how things unfold.

I'm one step ahead of you Scott. I have already checked my airmiles and I do have enough for both my son and me to go next year. Let me know when you are going so that I don't go at that time. Carole

Cal, If you've ever seen me Spey cast, you'll know I'm no expert. Abe Lincoln was once asked how long a man's legs should be, to which he replied, "Long enough to touch the ground." My Spey casting is just good enough to occasionally catch fish and bad enough that I get a great deal of respect from anyone nearby. I’ve had many good days on the Thompson--almost all have been good--however my best fly day in terms of numbers were four, several years ago. One of those, a small steelhead, I hooked dead centre in the tongue which caused it to bleed profusely. There must be an artery in that area and I’m sure the fish died. My most memorable day fly-fishing was the first screamer I hooked--about nineteen lbs--my first fly-caught T steelhead! Much of the Thompson is not well suited for fly-fishing and there are many factors to consider in your fly/bait scenario. Water temperature, light conditions, water flow, previous angling effort, time of day—all are more important factors when fly fishing than when bait fishing so I can’t really answer your challenge. However, I’ve seen a few fish that I could not catch fly fishing, but I’m sure I could have if I used bait. Regardless, a good fisher is a good fisher. Some (unnamed) people could probably use a willow branch with string and a safety pin to outfish me, so what do I know? How come we’re doing so much typing and so little fishing? TA

TA Your so right in that last statement. I live 100 yards from a super productive pool on the Coquitlam and it beckons to me right now...I will finish this post and Im off to chase a coho or two. I appreciate your honesty in the above post, and respect very much your opinions and attitudes. I agree that there is less fly fishing water on the Thompson, and I believe most of the bait guys that know the river respect that zone and dont infringe upon it. I doubt that that Steelhead died. The statement a good fisher is a good fisher, is so true. Those good fishers are set apart from the rest by many factors. Education/experiance are 2 of the most important factors. Most of the top guys are also those that have the most respect for the resource, and the fish they are fishing for. We have championed the program, developed by our Director Eric Carlisle, "handle with care" to attempt to maximise the survival rate of hooked fish. These are the posters that others on this board hunt down to rip off the trees and throw in the garbage. They explain to all anglers well researched methods in handling fish for greatest survival rates. Things that even some of the most experianced anglers would argue with, ie: the wearing of gloves etc. Sad that these self proclaimed river heroes dont take the time to read these posters before destroying them, they may learn something. What Im saying is that we try to do our best for the resource, we are active, and the lack of chat about other orgs on this board tells me that we are making noise and getting noticed. When no one talks about you thats time you worry.Like I said before TA I respect your "line in the sand" hopefully you respect ours, we can work together on more important issues, and leave it there.

shouldnt you guys be out fishing? i know scott's an internet armchair fisherman but the rest of you?

Carole; I would love to take you and your son fishing. We have 2 B&B's if you ever decide to come up this way. All I got today were 2 Dollies. This river is very cold and the fish are very lethargic. But the weather is unreal sunshine. And there is one more lady fisherperson that I have not heard from for a long time, Denise Maxwell. She guides on the Bulkley. Marianne

Marianne, That sounds so awsome! I am seriously thinking about comming up next year. I had no idea there were female guides. This is just to cool! A couple of years ago my daughter and I took off to Disneyland and left hubby and son at home so this time son and I will come to Terrace (He would just love that) and hubby and daughter can stay home (neither will like that but, oh well!). My husband never ever tries to stop me when I want to do something. Do you have a website for your B&B and is it a place that you have to book a year in advance? Can you tell me when the best time for flyfishing would be as I have to try to get holidays at that time and have to put in a request for them in January. Carole

<8018&page=8/1044"> Cal, I am on the Skeena right now. I was just wondering what system you are fishing with 23000 steelhead and you are allowed to use bait? Carole, You want to bring your son up to the north. Bring him up early and we will head out to rip some wild steelies. He can take my quota home with him as well. I would be more than happy to show him top notch ethics and etiquette on the river including how to skate those steelies in Skeena style. I would like nothing better than to pass on some knowledge to the younger generation. If they are going to learn then you might as well start them off right. Let me know if you are interested. Marianne knows the Kitimat quite well but she doesn't give out too many pro tips until the season is over.

Cat Thanks anyways but we have our hearts set on going up to terrace for a few days now that we have seen pictures of what it is like. We may not bring any fish home at all on that trip. We'll have to wait and see but JD certainly doesn't need to bring home 2 peoples quotas. It would be nice if he just brought 1 fish home. Who knows, we might not even catch anything. We are both relatively new to flyfishing and we just may not be experianced enough to bring those fish in. We are just going to go up and see the country and have a good time. We have never been in that area before. I also don't think my husband would appreciate a strange man showing us around a northern river. He lets me do pretty well what I want but I'm not so stupid as to rock the boat that much! But thanks for the offer. Carole

Carole, I was wondering if your husband fishes? If he does you can get a good stringer going and make your trip really worthwhile. I really hatet o see people go without. Besides you will get tired of snow covered peaks and clean air.

No, my husband hates fishing and skiing and archery. I love fishing, I have a season pass for skiing and I teach archery. He likes motorcycles and hockey and football. We are individuals and do what we like to do, especially me. I never get tired of snow covered peaks and clean air. Should I bring my skiis and my son bring his board when we go to Terrace. Can you really ski at that time of year. What a hard decision that would be. Carole

back to the bait debate.i have caught lots of steelhead on artificial and bait and never noticed fish hooked on bait any worse than artificial. i mainly use artificial now because my hands stay warmer, dont stink,and instead of rebaiting after missing a fish i can cast again right away. bait also isnt the most effective method all the time far far from it.

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