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I am a true believer in "protecting the environment and resource, practising safe fishing habits and respect towards others" which is the opening intro to the Freshwater Angling Etiquette - Code of Conduct for Sport Fishing in British Columbia. I am a member of the Fraser Valley Salmon Society and donator to the Defense Alliance to protect Canadian Rights to fish. I have fished since I was 14 years old, (for 31 years now), but not before becoming "rod worthy" and well schooled in the "sport" by my dad an avid and very capable fisherman. I enjoy river fishing for all species and fly fishing from my belly boat in lakes. Sorry for the long introduction .... now to the point. I have noticed that the personal enjoyment level of the "Sport Fisherman" has taken a drastic turn in the last couple of years. This can be attributed to a number of circumstances but the area I would like to address is the fisherman themselves. Under our present system anyone may enter a tackle shop and obtain a fishing license, a rod, a reel, line, and anything else required to get them fishing. They ask and get directions to the "hot" fishing locations and away they go !!!! No Test !!!!! No Experience !!!!! No Etiquette !!!!! No Respect for the Fish !!!!! Could you imagine going into the same sports shop and purchasing a gun, ammo, and asking where the best place to hunt would be without the requirement of a license or safety program in place??? Something moved in that bush ...... bang, bang .... oops .... it was just another hunter. But I only wounded him. Fishing .... the only food sport you don't need a license for. I personally have been crouded out of the spot I was at since before daylight .... being stuck in the rear by a hook or hit in the head by a lead weight. I've seen many fish mishandled by poor release methods, poor fishing methods due to a lack of knowledge and/or practise, and heard many people say after dragging their catch 20 feet up on shore ..... "What is it????" I have also almost killed by a boat screaming by wide open 30 feet away while out in my bellyboat fly fishing. These are only a few of the many things that come to mind. Something needs to be done as more and more people become new to the sport every year. Some European Countries have adopted a fishing license procedure similar to the requirement for a hunting license. A course must be taken from a recognized facility and both a "practical" nd "written" test must be passed before the potential angler may be issued a license. The sport fishing population would be informed and knowledgable in etiquette, fishing methods, casting, fish identification, conservaton, release procedures, and good general fishing habits. Both the time investment to comoplete the course and the cost of the course, (again similar to a hunting license course), may remove the not-so-serious potential angler from the circle. Children would not be exempt from the license requirement course although their license costs would not be altered. This would mean that children, while still being allowed to fish with a free license, must still show competence in all aspects of the pre-license course (ie: capable of handling a rod). Any other views on this matter would be appreciated ..... please keep your comments on topic.
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Great idea. I have seen all the same stuff. In the meantime all we "knowledgeable" fishermen can do is try to teach those around us, that is if they are willing to take heed to what we have to say. I have seen good fishermen try to pass on a few tips or even kindly introduce fishing ethics only to told to go "jump in a lake." The only way I can cope with the crouds these days is to try and pick out the good fishermen and fish with them. If you want to see a total embarrasment to the sport go to the scale bar at Hope. A few of those guys could sure use a lesson or two.
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Thanks Scobo, I was a Scale Bar yesterday unfortunately. Hooked a 35 pound Chrome Spring ... My buddy cradled it to identify it and it kicked a slipped out of his hands in shallow water ..... some guy ran over and kicked it twice ... once in the belly and the second time in the head. Nice way to treat someone elses catch. While my buddy and I were walking out there must have been another 80 people walking in .... heard it became just a ZOO then ... people forcing there way in on others, etc.
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I fished the scale bar yesterday and it was a zoo, I watched this guy battle this fish forever then suddenly its 30 feet up the bank,He runs down to it and sticks his hands in the gills(meanwhile this poor spring is flopping everywhere)Then he finds out its a white spring and tries to release it!!!Did i ever lay into this fellow(He diddnt understand much english)He told me to shut up and mind my own buisness.I told him he would get a fine for what he just did and his reply was i have lots of money!!And he knows what he is doing.After a long argument with lots of backup on my side this spring was eventually bonked and i personally watched this fellow tag it on his liscence.If any of you were there you would have heard this shouting match!!Was i in the rite or was i wrong for speeking up??Thanks for the backup guys(you know who you are)
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I think it's good that you spoke up. You're protecting the sport. I personally probably wouldn't have had the guts to speak up, but I think that once people start realizing that conservation officers aren't the only ones who will give them flack for mistreating fish, hopefully it won't happen as often. I'm fairly lucky because I live in Prince George and there are rarely really big crouds at my fishing spots, but even when there are, they all seem to be very curtious. The biggest croud I've ever seen was at Kitimat, below the hatchery, but even there I had no problems, and every one released their fish properly. Anyhow, keep up the good work. Tight Lines Dan
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I'm with you on that one Brad. That's the only way to learn until something else comes up, like even having to sit and watch a 30 min. video or something prior to issuing a license. When I first started fishing, I learned by watching and emulating everyone around me. Once I had someone I didn't even know help me release a dog - I beached the poor thing and this other guy took the hook out and kicked it back in. Luckily for me the DFO were watching and we both got $50 fines. At first I thought, how can that be, if people were doing it that way.... To make a long story short, I did't know that many rods out there lacked information. Now, I don't even beach fish unless I'm absolutly sure of what species it is and if I'm going to keep it. And if anyone tries to help I just say 'no thanks'.
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While I don't have a problem with some sort of test to get a fishing licence - the system you mentioned is used in Germany. It was foisted on the angling public by Animal rights groups and the green party and it's intention is to make getting an angling licence as difficult as possible. It's also interesting to note that catch and release fishing is defacto against the law in Germany. I think we should be careful as to what sort of model we adopt for testing fishing knowledge. it's generally agreed that the difficulty of getting a hunting licence has been the primary cause of the decrease and loss of influnce of the sport hunting community.
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I think that you have a very good idea there Stu. They finally brought in the manditory boat operators course/license so maybe fishing courses or testing before getting a licence would be a good idea. Any profit gained by the courses/testing should go back into the program or to enhancement of the fishery. Or it should be set up as a non-profit program "user fee only" and just pay for itself. Tax payers should not have to pay for it. I wouldn't want to see private individuals charging large amounts and gaining profit on this either. A comment on the Fraser River Sockeye and Spring fishery going on right now: I have a friend at work who often ribs me about my insistance to stay with my saltwater fishing hobby and my obbsession with the Ocean. He is an avid local freshwater and tidal Fraser fisherman. I think he spends most of his time at the Vedder but regularily fishes the bars of the Fraser. He says the type of fishing he does is far more challenging and exciting than what saltchuckers do in the saltchuck. He said also, that you don't have to own a boat. At times he has almost had me convinced, (about the Vedder fishing .. not the Fraser) but I always disagreed with him. I agreed with him that to fish in the saltwater a boat is often very necessary , but it doesn't have to be too expensive. I told him that I don't think I would enjoy fishing on the Fraser because of the lack of elbow room and the crowds, the fighting for a spot , the flossing, the stress of losing your spot , the stress of the overall "gong show" as most of you call it. After hearing on this web site what is going on out there, alot of you will be happy to know that I will not be adding to the already over crowded "gong show" on the Fraser. I will not fight, argue, yell, complain, be crowded, tangle lines or watch fish being abused. I am sticking to the Saltchuck where there is alot more room, peace and quiet and lots of fish that will actually bite a hook, the way they should. If its just meat you want ....the fish markets would probably be cheaper in the long run anyway and it's less stressfull too ! These markets are close to home and the best part for some of you is that there is usually NO LIMIT on any of the fish !
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Stu I would back your idea 100% It is the only way for new anglers to get an idea how they are to conduct themselves on the river. Im willing to submit things would change for the better if anglers had to pass a test on ethics, identification, methods and etc. Brad I am pleased that you stood up to be counted in dealing with that beak and the white spring.
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Altough I support the idea, I don't see how to make it feasable. Keep in mind the millions of $$$ spent by tourists to fish in our waters. There would be a intensive lobby effort by all the people making a living of the sport fishing industry to block such a legislation. Patrice
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all cops ar'nt bad all fishers are not A holes.thanks to the guys that pulled off me the snag above the bridge,went to same area the next day. two boats with 3 and 4 people and a dog beached there boat between four guys that were all ready almost shoulder to shoulder and proceeded to fish. how do licence this s---t my problem is that iam to old to fight and they won;nt let me carry agun so i just run
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I think perhaps it needs to be conveyed to the angler that the fish is a living, breathing (yes breathing) entity with the ability to sense pain and fear, not unlike our own. I don't want to compare it to a baby seal but I think mistreatment of fish is primarily a form of cruelty that many fishermen are oblivious to. I would support an angling course/test and practical teaching on releasing a fish carefully. I see guys on the Vedder kick fish all the time. You should get a year-long license suspension for deliberate harm done to a fish. There is an uneasy correlation between fish-kickers and those casting roe. (I had to add a little dig on the bait fishermen - sorry)
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A few bits for clarificaton. Yes Germany is one of the countries that have a licensing system which indeed does make it very difficult to obtain a fishing license there. The training I proposed would not be near the extent of what is in place there nor would it hamper fishing priviledges ... as I stated I am a supporter of the fishing defense alliance for all Canadians to have the right to fish. I do feel however that we can learn from some of the things going on in other countries and utilize parts which would only enhance our enjoyment of the sport. It sure would be nice to go to the river and know that the people around you are informed to the etiquette, evironment and acceptable fishing practices that we should all use. Whether they use them or not that still would be there choice. If they do get caught then the excuse that ... I DID NOT KNOW ... would be a waste of breath and they should definately face a suspension period. As for Visitors from other Provices, States or Countries .... perhaps if they want to fish within the waters of B.C. they should already possess a valid fishing license from their home area which may be an acceptable means of obtaing a B.C. License ..... or even better yet make arrangements to obtain the appropriate certification prior to their visit. Just my own thoughts up till now ... Stu
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Brad, Pleased to hear about your actions. Going up tomorrow (where?) with the kids. Will this be another educational experience? Cya's, tight lines. P.S.- As for Stu's great idea,lets get all those who agreed to write a letter or contact the BCWF, expressing these views.
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Although I was stuck on the tail end of the scale bar tonight i still had a good time, did'nt beach a sockeye.,..but the best part was watching the DFO guys walking down the beach checking gear and tags...and the few doorknobs rushing to shore to legalize their gear....go hard DFO!
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I tend to agree with Stu's idea but making it too difficult or too expensive may just increase poaching. I have always asked when I was unsure of something and I think that is the way most anglers are. The problem is the few that do not know or care about the rules/regs or proper etiquette are the ones that are making a bad name for all anglers. I agree with Brad educating that guy about the Spring and we have all seen guys throw fish back in or kick them back in not letting them revive or even sure that they will revive. Although I am not a member of any club or alliance (however I have donated at tackle shops to the Defence Alliance) I was wondering if there is anyone out there that could come up with some strong ideas and plans to present to DFO and/or Prov Fisheries. I think we would all be willing to contribute but is there anyone out there that represents a major group (the guides or Tackle shop organizations or Fish Clubs or enhancement societies) that would be willing and able to take this on? IMHO if we bring it to the feds or prov fisheries before they bring it to us we will have more to say about any changes. Tight Lines Dan
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Brad what time were you there??? I was there from about 830 to 130 i didnt hear the argument but you can assure that i would have been right in there yelling at the yahoo!! On the other side did anybody find that yesterday was slower than the days before for socks?? Wensday I was there for about 30 min(thank god) and hooked my 2 and handed off the rod for my patners 2 and relesed a few inbetween... but yesterday it took 3 hours to hook a fish first was a nice springer which i hooked midway on the bar for the first time ever that far down but lost it to the a$$holes at the bottom of the bar who wouldnt move if a tornad!! Then hit 6 socks in an hour!! But it wasnt the fishing that it was in the previous days!!
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I tend to agree with Stu's idea but making it too difficult or too expensive may just increase poaching. I have always asked when I was unsure of something and I think that is the way most anglers are. The problem is the few that do not know or care about the rules/regs or proper etiquette are the ones that are making a bad name for all anglers. I agree with Brad educating that guy about the Spring and we have all seen guys throw fish back in or kick them back in not letting them revive or even sure that they will revive. Although I am not a member of any club or alliance (however I have donated at tackle shops to the Defence Alliance) I was wondering if there is anyone out there that could come up with some strong ideas and plans to present to DFO and/or Prov Fisheries. I think we would all be willing to contribute but is there anyone out there that represents a major group (the guides or Tackle shop organizations or Fish Clubs or enhancement societies) that would be willing and able to take this on? IMHO if we bring it to the feds or prov fisheries before they bring it to us we will have more to say about any changes. Tight Lines Dan
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The only opportunity to get a copy of the fishing regulations into someone's hand is when he/she goes in to buy a license (and even then ... too many retailers don't bother). Despite this, the stewards of our fisheries decided a couple of seasons ago that a dandy way to educate people about the value of sportfishing would be to hold a "free fishing weekend" (also known as "Bonanza Days" for the tackle retailers). Granted, they did stress in the publicity that "you still have to abide by the regulations" - but did they really think that people would seek out copies of the regs ? Surely not. Fast-forwarding to this discussion ... I don't hold out much hope that the instigators of Free Fishing Weekend will support the idea of more stringent licensing standards. But ... I support the concept, wholeheartedly, even if it is a scary road to start down (as Ralph pointed out).
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Stu, just one more thing: You mentioned that you support the "Right to Fish" lobby. That's something that bears thinking about, given your position on licensing. I'm not sure you can have it both ways. Fishing isn't a right, in my opinion - it's a privilege that we can earn by agreeing to abide by certain rules (the learning of which is the whole point of a driver's test for anglers).
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Just so you have some understanding the Sportfishing Defence Alliance is an alliance of concerned groups in British Columbia who are determined to see the rights and concerns of the Sport Fishing Community given equal and fair consideration in the management of fisheries in the province Our Mission: To take actions: including legal, to reverse Department of Fisheries & Oceans Canada mismanagement of native fishing priorities and to ensure angler rights are preserved. The website is located at: http://www.defendsportfishing.com/ As I hope you will understand if you visit the website it does not mean that I support the FREE FISHING WEEKEND .... actually I am not in favor of it. It only adds to the problem that we are facing today with people not adhereing to the rules/regs or practising proper etiquette. Sorry, have more to say but have an appointment right now .... till later ... Stu
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I'm familiar with the SDA and unless I'm mistaken, that's the organization that came out with the "I have a right to fish" buttons last year (or words to that effect ... I didn't buy one ... I found it embarrassing). Although there are many sensible principles underlying that slogan, the slogan itself is confrontational - because it's intended as a slam against native fishery management decisions. I have a real problem when people start waving the flag and pointing at human rights proclamations in order to support their own political agendas (agendae). But, all of that is off-topic. If the SDA believes in our inalienable right to fish, then they must - by definition - be opposed to stringent licensing standards.
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I am sorry Bobber. I do not see the SDA as being a slam against native fishery management decisions. What I do see it as is a voice for the Sport Fishing population to provide information to the decision making individuals regarding the importance of the Sport Fishing sector. I see it more as a ... DO NOT FOGET US .... voice on behalf of all of us. I do not understand how you reach your conclusion in your last paragraph as the SDA is not opposed to any fishing regulations as they appear now. Because of this fact then why do you think that they would be opposed to educating the public with the information contained within the fishing regulations manual prior to obtaining a fishing license.
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Well, I'm sure you understand the SDA's motives better than I do Stu - but a visitor to their website would sure come away with the impression that they regard the aboriginal fishery (management thereof) as public enemy number one. As for the other issue: First, I wasn't talking about regulations - I was talking about licensing requirements. There's an important difference. If fishing is a right, then you can't prevent me from doing it by requiring me to pass a series of tests. You can "tax" me for it (by charging a license fee), and you can temporarily suspend my rights if I break the law (regulations), but you can't choose who qualifies for the right and who doesn't. The exercise of fundamental rights and the imposition of licensing standards are contradictory.
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Whether it is a fundamental right or a privilidge to fish would be a matter of splitting hairs. All people have the fundamental right to obtain a drivers license ... yet they do not just go in and pay for the license and get handed a book regarding the rules and regulations about driving. They have to pass a series of tests to obtain it and take courses or training to learn the rule and regulations. Similarly then, that is all my proposal would consist of regarding licensing standards (as you phrase it) regarding obtaining a fishing license. Hope this clarifies my position ..... I personally am not, in any form, going to try to deal with the native fishing issue.
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"fundamental right to obtain a drivers license"? I think you're somewhat mixed up there. Show me in the Canadian Constitution where this right is mentioned. Start here http://www.solon.org/Constitutions/Canada/English/index.html it'll give you alll the details. Happy Hunting! OTOH you can take my word for it-it isn't mentioned at all. Your assertion about 'Drivers License' rights is as nonsensical as the position that there's a 'right' to Recreationally fish-there isn't! Never has been never will be no matter what that expensive lawyer you have working for you says. Similarly there is no 'right' to grow roses, no 'right' to work on old cars and no 'right' to play hockey. It's fun (recreation) that's all.
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I understand everyone's frustration level with the idiots we all wind up fishing beside on occaision but I would never be in support of the government requiring me to undergo "testing" in order to fish. For those of you int eh crowd that actually think this would do anything for any of us you're sadly mistaken. Think I'm wrong? Think about the last time you drove your car. Notice how mnay people can't drive a car to save thier lives? And this is a process that takes months of practice/testing. An idiot is an idiot is an idiot. You send an idiot to the river but he'll still forget he read the book about "good fishing ethics" We need to do our best on the riverbanks to enforce what we know is right when DFO isn't around. Gun laws don't stop the crooks from getting guns they just make it more inconvienent for the average Joe. Overregulating and complicating the fish licening process will only take away from the majority of people on this board.
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I think it's important to remember that the purpose of a "skills test" for anglers is to promote education - to at least prompt people to think about what they're doing. No, education doesn't always work (look at what comes out of our high schools), but that's no reason to abandon the idea. The driving test comparison is a bit of a red herring, Fishdaddy. The number of idiot drivers we encounter in a day has to be compared to the total number of people who are licensed to drive - the ratio isn't all that bad, considering. As for gun control laws - that's way off the issue. A more relevant comparison would be CORE-style education programs for hunters.
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The CORE program is definately a more similar comparison but it is also dissimilar : Guns can kill, a fishing rod generally can't. There are alot more fish than there are big game animals, therefore fewer people hunt as opposed to fish. The CORE program is there to ensure that the requisite skill is in place to prevent people from shooting each other or the wrong thing. I agree that some of the people on the rivers and lakes we all fish need a better level of education but I also don't believe that overregulating is the sollution. Keep big brother as far away as possible !!
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Regulating or orverregulating as far as fishing is concerned is and will probabaly always be handled by DFO. My idea to educate the new fishing license applications would, as originally mentioned at the start, be used to give them some idea of what they are doing prior to going to the river of lake of their choice. I guess it depends on how you look at it, but fishing rods can and do kill every day. Maybe not humans (but it does cause injuries), and what about the person that drags a fish up on the beach ..... stands there for 3 minutes wondering what it is .... and then tries to let it go (see Brad Hay message on Aug. 2 above). It does kill ... it kills fish (some for no reason) and if Big Brother (DFO) is watching it contributes to killing or chances to fish. The more abuse out there the more reluctant they would be to provide us with fishing oportunities. No one is talking about making it a month long course to obtain a fishing license ... but it should have a pre-requisite that the person know some basics about what they will be doing.
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